Onslaught Timer & Vanish 3- ARCHIVE

What would you like to see in future updates?

Onslaught Timer & Vanish 3- ARCHIVE

Postby Bj_Knows » Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:45 pm

Dear Venan,
 
This thread is to explore the interaction between the Onslaught Timer (this limits the combat time per 6 energy) and Vanish rank 3.


Archived for Research (80Archive)

 
If you are getting rid of the Onslaught Raids, please disregard this thread.
 
With Crit 40%, Crit Power 250% (see Semi-Soft Stat Cap Post [  viewtopic.php?p=4240#p4240
]) and Vanish rank 3, a Shadow Walker has Crit 90% and Crit Power 300% ( 1.00 * 0.1 + 3.00 *0.9 ) = *2.8 average damage per attack. The maximum a Justicar and War Mage can get is Crit 50% and Crit Power 300% (see Hard Caps in FAQ thread ) for ( 1.00 *0.5 + 3.00 *0.5 ) = *2.0 average damage per attack. Especially against Triple Groups, *2.8 average damage per attack, Offhand Dagger (defeat three monsters with two Basic Attacks if Critical Hit), Sword 1.0 Speed (fastest, less damage, but enough for most Triple Groups if Critical Hit) and Minor Spirit Rune 0.0 Speed (instant, damage enough for most Triple Groups if Critical Hit), allows Shadow Walkers to dominate RPP on Onslaught Raids if their Might Rating is double the minimum.
 
below are some possible changes.
 
Everyone should feel free to chime in with their ideas about Onslaught Timer and Vanish rank 3. If you wish to discuss other aspects of Onslaught Timer and other aspects of Vanish, please start another topic. Thank you.
Volunteer- donating BLOOD to Red Cross, SWEAT to Forums.

Bj_Knows

AKA
GM= Things Guilds Were Not Meant to Know
Bj_DWR
BjKnows
Gryphonknight= Ingress, Pokemon, Empires & Puzzles (& Miikeeyy)
CEO of Bee jay Industries
Bj_the_SPOON
BjofCJandBj
User avatar
Bj_Knows
Moderator
 
Posts: 2437
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:13 am

Blessing: Accuracy & Piercing Strike

Postby Bj_Knows » Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:46 pm

Add two new Blessings.
 
For 5 Gold Shields add 24 hour Blessing of Accuracy (Crit +25% & Crit Power +25%)
With Soft Stat Cap, Total Crit 75% ( 1.00 * 0.25 + 3.00 *0.75 ) = *2.5 average damage per attack.
 
For 15 Gold Shields add 24 hour Blessing of Piercing Strike (Crit +48% & Crit Power +48% ). With Soft Stat Cap, Total Crit 98% ( 1.00 * 0.02 + 3.00 *0.98 ) = *2.96 average damage per attack
 
This would allow Justicars & War Mages to keep up with Shadow Walkers in Onslaught Raids since they have more Group Attacks. If the Group Attacks got more Critical Hits, they would balance out the Shadow Walker Offhand Dagger.
 
Note: Shadow Walkers would also have access to both Blessings, making Onslaught Raids more equitable to all three classes.
Volunteer- donating BLOOD to Red Cross, SWEAT to Forums.

Bj_Knows

AKA
GM= Things Guilds Were Not Meant to Know
Bj_DWR
BjKnows
Gryphonknight= Ingress, Pokemon, Empires & Puzzles (& Miikeeyy)
CEO of Bee jay Industries
Bj_the_SPOON
BjofCJandBj
User avatar
Bj_Knows
Moderator
 
Posts: 2437
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:13 am

Crit Hard Cap & Matching Blessing

Postby Bj_Knows » Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:47 pm

For 5 Gold Shields add 24 hour Blessing of Accuracy (Crit +25% & Crit Power +25%)
With Soft Stat Cap, Total Crit 75% ( 1.00 * 0.25 + 3.00 *0.75 ) = *2.5 average damage per attack.
 
Change the Crit Stat Caps from 40%/50%/100% (Semi-Soft/ Soft/ Hard) to 40%/50%/75% for a Crit 75% Hard Cap. With Soft Stat Cap, total Crit 75% ( 1.00 * 0.25 + 3.00 *0.75 ) = *2.5 average damage per attack
 
This would allow Justicars & War Mages the weaker Blessing, but lower Hard Stat Cap on Cirt to match it. Justicar & War Mage Group Attacks would then balance Shadow Walker Offhand Dagger.
Volunteer- donating BLOOD to Red Cross, SWEAT to Forums.

Bj_Knows

AKA
GM= Things Guilds Were Not Meant to Know
Bj_DWR
BjKnows
Gryphonknight= Ingress, Pokemon, Empires & Puzzles (& Miikeeyy)
CEO of Bee jay Industries
Bj_the_SPOON
BjofCJandBj
User avatar
Bj_Knows
Moderator
 
Posts: 2437
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:13 am

Re: Crit Hard Cap & Matching Blessing

Postby Pur3Aw3zom3n3zz » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:26 pm

BjofCJandBj wrote:For 5 Gold Shields add 24 hour Blessing of Accuracy (Crit +25% & Crit Power +25%)
With Soft Stat Cap, Total Crit 75% ( 1.00 * 0.25 + 3.00 *0.75 ) = *2.5 average damage per attack.
 
Change the Crit Stat Caps from 40%/50%/100% (Semi-Soft/ Soft/ Hard) to 40%/50%/75% for a Crit 75% Hard Cap. With Soft Stat Cap, total Crit 75% ( 1.00 * 0.25 + 3.00 *0.75 ) = *2.5 average damage per attack
 
This would allow Justicars & War Mages the weaker Blessing, but lower Hard Stat Cap on Cirt to match it. Justicar & War Mage Group Attacks would then balance Shadow Walker Offhand Dagger.

Hold on a second there. I don't want venan messing with the set up on my shadow walker that hugely, (minor tweaks here and there im fine with). I do like the idea of a blessing for crit/crit power though.
P.S. I don't see why we're trying to balance onslaught. I think the answer is to make the timer different for each class. That way each class can still keep their characteristics and abilities.
Pur3Aw3zom3n3zz
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:01 pm

Re: Onslaught Timer & Vanish 3 (Tactic, Data, P1-3)

Postby Aryantes » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:02 am

I agree that Vanish overall is an extremely powerful skill, probably too powerful.

Onslaught just favors buffs vs debuffs, at least during non-boss phases. I think thats a different issue.

This issue here is not specific to onslaught, its the fact that critical hits are so extremely powerful, and therefore vanish's effectiveness is too high.

It just so happens that two things put together create a very unbalanced situation for onslaught.

Maybe Crit Power should cap at like, 180% instead of 300% (randomly chose 180) to make crits not quite as important. Who knows.

I don't think changing the timer does anything though except artificially modifies RPP rate. It doesn't really fixing any class differences and just accepts the fact that shadow walkers are overpowered in relation to other classes.
Aryantes
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:50 pm

Onslaught Timer & Crit Power

Postby Bj_Knows » Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:33 pm

Aryantes wrote:
Maybe Crit Power should cap at like, 180% instead of 300% (randomly chose 180) to make crits not quite as important.



This is actually a good idea. Thank you for sharing it.

However, it did not work.

Crit Power used to be fixed at 150%. Very few characters put points in Crit since a Critical Hit did so little damage. Shadow Walkers dominated because they got nature Damage Over Time from Toxic Blade rank 3 & Poison Cloud rank 3. Justicars were hampered since their DOTs could be Dodged or Blocked. War Mages were hampered since their only DOT was Flaming Pyre while Justicars had Wound/ Circle of Blades and Shadow Walkers had Toxic Blade/ Poison Cloud.

see old post Toxic Blade 1 & 3: Strategy: Damage Over Time (BoH v1.2) ( http://forums.toucharcade.com/showthrea ... ost2175889 )
Volunteer- donating BLOOD to Red Cross, SWEAT to Forums.

Bj_Knows

AKA
GM= Things Guilds Were Not Meant to Know
Bj_DWR
BjKnows
Gryphonknight= Ingress, Pokemon, Empires & Puzzles (& Miikeeyy)
CEO of Bee jay Industries
Bj_the_SPOON
BjofCJandBj
User avatar
Bj_Knows
Moderator
 
Posts: 2437
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:13 am

Re: Onslaught Timer & Vanish 3 (Tactic, Data, P1-3)

Postby Pur3Aw3zom3n3zz » Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:30 pm

Aryantes wrote:I agree that Vanish overall is an extremely powerful skill, probably too powerful.

Onslaught just favors buffs vs debuffs, at least during non-boss phases. I think thats a different issue.

This issue here is not specific to onslaught, its the fact that critical hits are so extremely powerful, and therefore vanish's effectiveness is too high.

It just so happens that two things put together create a very unbalanced situation for onslaught.

Maybe Crit Power should cap at like, 180% instead of 300% (randomly chose 180) to make crits not quite as important. Who knows.

I don't think changing the timer does anything though except artificially modifies RPP rate. It doesn't really fixing any class differences and just accepts the fact that shadow walkers are overpowered in relation to other classes.

1st let's compare a Shadow Walker VS a War Mage, or Justicar with the same crit and crit power of 50%, and 250% respectively. The non-SW would be doing 175% of normal damage, (250%*50%+100%*50%). While the SW would be doing 300%-ctp, (ctp=cast time penalty), normal damage, (300%*100-ctp). Meaning that the SW would be doing 171.43%-ctp, what the WM, or J, would be doing, (300%/175%-ctp), and if the WM or J had maxed out crit power instead of semi soft caped crit power, then the SW would be doing 150%-ctp what the WM or J would be doing.
Now let's look at a different type of ability, the ones that decrease resistance. I'm not completely sure how these work, but it seems to add a certain amount of damage to an attack of that type. The amount of damage that it adds seems to be about how much you would do with out it against an enemy that is very resistant to that kind of attack. Ex. if you do around 500 damage to an enemy very resistant to the type of attack you're doing, and 1000 to a different enemy without the debuff, then with the debuff you should theoretically do about 1000 damage to the first enemy, and 1500 damage to the second one. if I'm right about that, then these kind of abilities make you do around 155%-ctp to the average enemy, (just an estimate i made up. It could be higher or lower, but i think its around there if you average everything out). Keep in mind that this is only for certain attacks instead of all attacks like vanish.
With all this in mind i would say that vanish is more powerful then other buffs/debuffs. My suggestion would be that venan makes it so vanish doesn't change crit power, and crit power is semi soft caped at 200% and hard caped at 250%. that way with both crit and crit power semi soft caped, a SW would do 135.71%-ctp what a J, or WM would be doing on all atacks, and with them as high as possible the SW would now be doing 142.86%-ctp what the J or WM would be doing.
lastly, my previous suggestion about changing times for onslaught based on classes, was because 1 class being able to kill enemies faster doesn't neccessarily mean that that class is better then the other ones. I know people who like their J best, people who like their WM best, and people who like their SW best. yet the people who like their J or WM the best are annoyed that they can't kill as much as their SW can in the onslaught raids. Although i do see more people that like their SW the best. Which tells me that SWs are most likely overpowered, and i think my above suggestion would help that.
P.S. i think debuffs should last between waves in onslaught raids.
Pur3Aw3zom3n3zz
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:01 pm

Re: Onslaught Timer & Vanish 3 (Tactic, Data, P1-3)

Postby Aryantes » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:07 pm

I think the overall problem is not necessarily with damage, or damage per second, or other math.

It is a fundamental problem with the fact that Onslaught debuffs don't carry, when buffs do, and that mobs die extremely fast.

The other problem, is the fact that a critical hit will often kill your enemies in 1 hit, or 2, compared to someone else who does not get a critical hit, takes 3, or 4. This effectively doubles your effectiveness when you get a crit hit.

I'm sure you have all seen that if you don't get a crit, enemies are close to dead, but not dead. This makes for a lot of wasted time for a second spell cast.

(just an example of what i mean, with numbers i made up)
For instance, enemy has 1000 hp, your non-crit does 700. your crit does 2100.

If you successfully crit, you spent maybe 0.75 seconds cast time. If you did not kill everything, it would take you another cast to do so, maybe doubling that time to 1.5 seconds for another AoE or small cleanup skills.

The crit power is not really the catalyst in these cases, its just the percentage chance of crit that is so powerful.

Man, even just using a minor rune and getting crit makes it so awesome.

I don't necessarily have a problem with crits, its just that this game has no real concept of DPS. DPS involves damage over a healthy amount of time. In this game, fights last for 1 or 2 spells. This is so dramatic, that it doesn't even matter how much damage you really do. It only matters if you crit or not.

Vanish allows you a consistency that is far beyond any concept of damage, simply because the mobs are strong enough to survive a non-crit but too weak to survive a crit.

Bosses are pretty much similar with how weak they are. Except they take 2-3 hits instead of 1.

The longer the fight lasts, the more the classes could be balanced, based on proper DPS math and full duration of buffs/debuffs. Then, perhaps strategy could come into play.
Aryantes
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:50 pm

Re: Onslaught Timer & Vanish 3 (Tactic, Data, P1-3)

Postby Pur3Aw3zom3n3zz » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:26 pm

Aryantes wrote:I think the overall problem is not necessarily with damage, or damage per second, or other math.

It is a fundamental problem with the fact that Onslaught debuffs don't carry, when buffs do, and that mobs die extremely fast.

The other problem, is the fact that a critical hit will often kill your enemies in 1 hit, or 2, compared to someone else who does not get a critical hit, takes 3, or 4. This effectively doubles your effectiveness when you get a crit hit.

I'm sure you have all seen that if you don't get a crit, enemies are close to dead, but not dead. This makes for a lot of wasted time for a second spell cast.

(just an example of what i mean, with numbers i made up)
For instance, enemy has 1000 hp, your non-crit does 700. your crit does 2100.

If you successfully crit, you spent maybe 0.75 seconds cast time. If you did not kill everything, it would take you another cast to do so, maybe doubling that time to 1.5 seconds for another AoE or small cleanup skills.

The crit power is not really the catalyst in these cases, its just the percentage chance of crit that is so powerful.

Man, even just using a minor rune and getting crit makes it so awesome.

I don't necessarily have a problem with crits, its just that this game has no real concept of DPS. DPS involves damage over a healthy amount of time. In this game, fights last for 1 or 2 spells. This is so dramatic, that it doesn't even matter how much damage you really do. It only matters if you crit or not.

Vanish allows you a consistency that is far beyond any concept of damage, simply because the mobs are strong enough to survive a non-crit but too weak to survive a crit.

Bosses are pretty much similar with how weak they are. Except they take 2-3 hits instead of 1.

The longer the fight lasts, the more the classes could be balanced, based on proper DPS math and full duration of buffs/debuffs. Then, perhaps strategy could come into play.

I definately agree that waves are way too short, (and easy), in this game, but that's a totally different issue. Until then, I think my temporary soltuion would at least help balance the game better.
Pur3Aw3zom3n3zz
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:01 pm


Return to Feature Requests & Suggestions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest