jusies op?

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Re: jusies op?

Postby EricM » Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:18 pm

iOptioniousPrime wrote:I've described how easily a Justi can drop a sequence for a Mage to be unable to strike for 8 direct hits. Justi's have nearly 6 stuns that a Mage needs to channel through during a fight, with a Mage trying to wait for a stun due to CD from the get go. Otherwise we have a 6 second interrupt that doesn't do much with seismic at the helm of the next strike. If the interrupt would establish a Cool Down for the blocked cast then maybe we'd be getting somewhere. Mages are sitting ducks vs Justi's. That's not a PvP match, in my opinion, but a hope for a resist or spell dodge.


I'm getting the feeling that you're talking purely about mage vs. justi here. I think part of the issue is that, like i said earlier, that without higher level enchants and gems, the innate class advantages (SW > Justi > WM > SW) become very apparent. It isn't much consolation, but at high might, it does all even out.

SW > Justi. My SW runs 57% dodge, 12% block, 36% status resist. Obviously this is a bit higher than your average player, but vs. a high might justi, where I'm always defending against seismic, it will rarely hit (57% dodge + 12% block + 20% block defend + 10% dodge defend = 1% chance of hitting on defend, 31% chance of hitting when not defending). Likewise with brutal. And then Stun is subject to stat resist. So its very unlikely that a justi actually manages to get off a brutal + seismic and they both land (Purao is about the only one who manages it semi-consistently). That said, when seismic or brutal do land, they do hurt quite a bit. But it feels to me like melee SW's are innately strong vs. melee justicars.

Justi > Warmage. Obviously, through a combo of juggernaught and resists, the justi completely dominates the first half of the match when played correctly. But at higher mights, health ends up getting high enough that the juggs do run out, and with a well played second half, a warmage can quickly make up the difference. I've seen quite a few replays of some of our warmages taking a beating from some of the top justis in the first half, but due to 36-40k health, the juggernaughts run out somewhere in the middle of that, allows warmages (with their high damage output) to quickly catch back up (provided their dodges, resists are high enough to not get caught by the seismic-brutal combos). But for these and the reasons you stated above, Justis seem to have the innate advantage here.

Warmage > Shadow Walker. Arcane Shield + Ice Spike Armor turn into a blood bath against shadow walkers. I average ~20 damaging attacks in a typical fight vs. a warmage... which is 10k+ damage right there reflected back at me when facing the top warmages (I have 36k hp, so i'm effectively facing wms with only 26k hp that i can lose). I've had matches where I've resisted every stun, every status, and spell dodged every attack and still lost due to sheer damage output by warmages (even running 70% magic damage mitigation). <<That match was actually pretty fascinating to watch. So warmages innately have an advantage in those fights.

So point of this long explanation was that, it's not that justi's are overpowered by any means. BOH PVP just has this weird rock-paper-scissors thing going on, and unfortunately, wins are a lot more class mismatch dependent at lower might. There is a definite problem though with low might pvp. My 20k wm (which i stacked for full damage) has routinely done 25-30k damage vs. toons in the lower leagues with less defenses. I definitely understand where the "wm op" and "justi op" comments are coming from, its just that I also think that much like other games of it's kind, pvp should definitely be balanced for the higher leagues, and hopefully relatively balanced for all leagues (which is much more difficult).

tl;dr -> all three classes have their strengths and weaknesses lol.
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Re: jusies op?

Postby DiMoSauR » Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:01 am

_Raiden wrote:Actually all this talks points to only 1 thing Knockback.
Of which the work around is to level up all your Knockback resist problem slove :)

As for jugg if u time your attacks correctly jugg is not so much of an issue here.
1s jugg but a justi needs 0.7s to excute a Brut on the opponent.

So an option to counter jugg is to defend 0.5s and launch the next attack that's more than 0.5s that more or less render the jugg useless.

There are many ways around it. This is just one of te option.

Less complaining more thinking will get u more solution. :)
very true indeed,specially now with new health gems where some peeps have 40 K health, jug is not as much usefull as it was,unles u can finish a fight with few hits,and if u do work around it with defend and waste couple of seconds not much of a difference!now is more challenging and entertainment!only thing is OP is Salad!!!
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Re: jusies op?

Postby Jumper » Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:06 pm

My opinion is that different toons (regardless of classes) perform better vs specific types of opponents. Focusing on a " beat justie build" will leave you at the mercy of a wm and vice versa. Or focusing on magic resist vs physical resist or finding a balance. It's just a matter of choice. (I for example struggle against physical builds, unless I dodge like a maniac, since I feel I face more magic builds). With new equipment and new gems the game is gonna change. I think it's good that venan takes their time until people are gemed out (at high might anyhow). Having said that, as a wm, I've beaten every toon in masters league and in return they have all beaten me. It's all for fun.
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Re: jusies op?

Postby Jumper » Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:21 pm

just a note on embarrassing math performed by eric.....smh

percentages are not additive...geesh, where did you go to school? toys-R-us academy of mathematical illiteracy????

first lets assume venan adds the dodge and block bonus due to defend right in your base stats
57% dodge + 10% defend = 67%
12% block + 20% defend = 32%

(I am making an assumption here that these are simply added when defend is pushed).

secondly, assume that if dodge is proced, there is no defend roll.

so 67% chance to dodge, then out of the remaining 33%, you have a 32% chance to block that, i.e. this occurs 10.6% of the time.

Therefore, you will avoid seismic 77.6% of the time....not 99% !!!!!!

Note that if block roll comes before dodge, nothing changes (you'll block 32% of time and dodge 45.6% of time for a total of 77.6%)

Think that even with lets say 75% dodge and 50% block, seismic would still land 12.5% of the time.
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Re: jusies op?

Postby EricM » Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:10 pm

EinsteinLovesMe wrote:just a note on embarrassing math performed by eric.....smh

percentages are not additive...geesh, where did you go to school? toys-R-us academy of mathematical illiteracy????

first lets assume venan adds the dodge and block bonus due to defend right in your base stats
57% dodge + 10% defend = 67%
12% block + 20% defend = 32%

(I am making an assumption here that these are simply added when defend is pushed).

secondly, assume that if dodge is proced, there is no defend roll.

so 67% chance to dodge, then out of the remaining 33%, you have a 32% chance to block that, i.e. this occurs 10.6% of the time.

Therefore, you will avoid seismic 77.6% of the time....not 99% !!!!!!

Note that if block roll comes before dodge, nothing changes (you'll block 32% of time and dodge 45.6% of time for a total of 77.6%)

Think that even with lets say 75% dodge and 50% block, seismic would still land 12.5% of the time.


They're additive lol. Don't be doubting my math ;) it's one of those little known boh pvp secrets. Confirmed with Dave a few weeks ago. I thought the same way you did until I realized seismic hits me a lot less often than 24% of the time through defends. So I decided to check. With enough dodge and block, you'd never get hit cleanly (except by crits, which can still occur.)

It's why my advice to every SW for the past few months has been to go shield + pump up dodge.

Think of it as a d100 roll. With 50% dodge and 30% block, the roll happens something like 1-50 = dodge, 51-80 = block, 81-100 = hit.
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Re: jusies op?

Postby Jumper » Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:41 pm

WTF??????

so venan went to toys-r-us school for the mathematical illiteracy!!!!!



SW OP!
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Re: jusies op?

Postby EricM » Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:59 pm

EinsteinLovesMe wrote:WTF??????

so venan went to toys-r-us school for the mathematical illiteracy!!!!!



SW OP!


You'd think... Until you realize wm base damage is higher than SW on dw lol. So yeah we might be dodging and blocking a lot, but stun damage is still full, that ice counter takes out 15-30% of our hp throughout the match, and spell dodge still does massive damage lol. Brad has hit me on a spell dodge for 3-4k lol. Combo of all that makes it pretty rough. Though vs melee justis, it all really comes in handy.
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Re: jusies op?

Postby Jumper » Wed Nov 05, 2014 3:15 pm

I really am not sure what it feels like to lose against you..... hold on... why are we discusign sw, wm opness in a justie thread??? lol

And why is my name still unchanged????
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Re: jusies op?

Postby Bbbb » Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:09 pm

EricM wrote:due to 36-40k health
......
hopefully relatively balanced for all leagues (which is much more difficult).


I think one statement shows why the other one isn't true. I suspect only 100-200 people (not toons) have more than a couple of gems for pvp use.

I did a lot of mid-level PvP farming with my second mage. I know well justi>WM, but the strange thing is that maybe only 5-10% of all my battles were against SWs. I didn't even have enough experience there to have a strategy or know who is better.... It makes me wonder if I had odd luck or lower level SWs had a bad experience and quit PvP.

A piece of advice to you low level SWs, if you have a DOT on you that is going to kill you, don't do Caltrops as your next move! :D
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Re: jusies op?

Postby DreamingDæmon » Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:13 pm

Jumper wrote:WTF??????

so venan went to toys-r-us school for the mathematical illiteracy!!!!!


Please don't associate us with this sort of math. We can give you 50% sale price and an extra 30% off if you buy today, plus 10% off if you take out our loyalty card, and you'll still pay $98.99 for a $99.99 item.

Yours,
Toys-R-Us
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