I Quit- PvP Bad

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Re: I Quit

Postby Spriher » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:13 pm

Compared to Beta, PvP currently is quite underwhelming. Basically it's a game of win/loss trading. If I win few in a row, I am not looking forward to playing more because I know I will lose couple of next matches. I have no idea is it really that system gives you disadvantages or it just pits you with higher might/rated people who are tougher to beat. But the end result is really the same.

Basically it's just a grind of win/loss trading till you get a new piece of gear/gem/enchant and then you climb a bit and its same old win/trading again. Rinse and repeat.
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Re: I Quit

Postby GabZ » Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:37 am

Winning or loosing isnt the issue here. The issue is that pvp is not fair, as it is now. What do we get of getting our might up by putting more gems and getting more enchants? Nothing. I can post the video right now where sw dodges most of my attacks despite not having a single dodge gem in his gears and with caltrops & garrote on him. On the other hand, i have many dodge gems in my gears still i didn't dodge even with defend on and it happens quite often. Thats something to think about.
I am perfectly fine with opponents dodging and resisting more than me if they have more or similar amount of gems and enchants than me in their gears.
So, winning or loosing isn't the issue here.
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Re: I Quit

Postby Illy_the_Red » Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:39 am

GabZ wrote:Winning or loosing isnt the issue here. The issue is that pvp is not fair, as it is now. What do we get of getting our might up by putting more gems and getting more enchants? Nothing. I can post the video right now where sw dodges most of my attacks despite not having a single dodge gem in his gears and with caltrops & garrote on him. On the other hand, i have many dodge gems in my gears still i didn't dodge even with defend on and it happens quite often. Thats something to think about.
I am perfectly fine with opponents dodging and resisting more than me if they have more or similar amount of gems and enchants than me in their gears.
So, winning or loosing isn't the issue here.


I agree PvP is far from fair, however it's quite possible to have a very high dodge without many dodge gems (training + quickness + 1-2 dodge gems). You're probably fighting toons higher in might and with more/maxed training than yourself. I've fought a lot of higher-might mages and Justicars that dodged a hell of a lot more than my SW did, even with maxed dodge and quickness. Part of it will also be observation bias - you remember those fights more because of the insane dodging, but not those fights where your/their dodging was average. You'll also remember more vividly your own toon having fewer dodges.

The same bias used to creep in to complaints about ice shield (now arcane shield), as you remember matches with multiple procs (since its bad for you) but not the matches where it didn't proc much.

This isn't a defence of the system or numbers - nobody has any evidence that x ability procs at X% so we have to take the word of the devs when they say its correct.
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Re: I Quit

Postby Illy_the_Red » Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:42 am

Spriher wrote:Compared to Beta, PvP currently is quite underwhelming. Basically it's a game of win/loss trading. If I win few in a row, I am not looking forward to playing more because I know I will lose couple of next matches. I have no idea is it really that system gives you disadvantages or it just pits you with higher might/rated people who are tougher to beat. But the end result is really the same.

Basically it's just a grind of win/loss trading till you get a new piece of gear/gem/enchant and then you climb a bit and its same old win/trading again. Rinse and repeat.


This was well put and sums up a lot of people's PvP frustration. Only part I'd take issue with was that its worse than beta. I think it's better...but not so much better as first appeared. The main improvement was removing the onus on maintaining those W-L ratios (which were used to justify pretty much anything) and having you get the same rewards, win or lose. The latter was vitally important if they wanted to get more people involved.
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Re: I Quit

Postby Spriher » Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:02 am

Ilyana wrote:
Spriher wrote:Compared to Beta, PvP currently is quite underwhelming. Basically it's a game of win/loss trading. If I win few in a row, I am not looking forward to playing more because I know I will lose couple of next matches. I have no idea is it really that system gives you disadvantages or it just pits you with higher might/rated people who are tougher to beat. But the end result is really the same.

Basically it's just a grind of win/loss trading till you get a new piece of gear/gem/enchant and then you climb a bit and its same old win/trading again. Rinse and repeat.


This was well put and sums up a lot of people's PvP frustration. Only part I'd take issue with was that its worse than beta. I think it's better...but not so much better as first appeared. The main improvement was removing the onus on maintaining those W-L ratios (which were used to justify pretty much anything) and having you get the same rewards, win or lose. The latter was vitally important if they wanted to get more people involved.


I agree that win-loss ratio from beta maybe wasn't the best ranking system but at least it allowed people with lower might to climb quite high on the ladder if they were willing to spend some time and effort with PvP. It also presented who is very good and who is not in PvP much better than current leagues which are basically just might leagues. Also, I loved that winning brought more points/medals than losing so there was actually an incentive for winning and improving your PvP setup.

As you mentioned, Venan probably wanted to involve more people and that's a legitimate motive. But at the same time, I feel this design, everyone must have 50% win/loss ratio, just waters everything down and PvP becomes just a boring, mindless medal grind with no competitiveness and unpredictability.
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Re: I Quit

Postby Frozensoul » Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:38 am

nobody cry bout u when u quit but i guess giving up doesnt make u feel good eh?
accept the challenge and try to improve ur strat/equip.
find different ways to success farm ur ass off and enchant ur stuff to lvl9. take it sportsmanlike if u loose share and discuss knowledge with ur mates ;)
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Re: I Quit

Postby Frozensoul » Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:44 am

actually its more depented of a player skill/playstyle than his might.
i have lvl33 sw 16k / spirit jus lvl31 11k might. both have beaten double higher might opponents a couple of times so far.
u should also try to enchant one per day to get better.

first stat resist up to lvl4-5 then other enchants is imo the best way
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Re: I Quit

Postby Finnius » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:49 am

I don't pvp. Hate it. But from reading this thread something sinister is going on that you people haven't addressed yet. If I have say...a 40% crit chance because of gems or whatever...BUT I have been on a winning streak...venan will basically ignore my crit chance and I will start getting less and less crits. Same with dodge. Well that's not fair at all is it? I should be getting a crit (on average) 2 out of every 5 hits (40%). Are you telling me that basically this game is ignoring your stats and predetermining the win even before you start..based on your winning streak? Well if that's the case what is the point of even doing pvp? You admit you are locked in a 50/50 ratio. That's not fair. If someone is a better player...better geared, etc. Then his/her ratio SHOULD ALWAYS be better than 50/50. The game can't sit there and determine that you have had a good streak so it's now time that some lower lever, lesser equipped person MUST beat you to get you back to the 50/50 model. If this is truly the case then you all should boycott the pvp aspect.

Wouldn't a simpler rating system reward by points? 1 point for beating someone that the game feels you are stat-equal to. 2 points if he is a level above you. MINUS 2 points if he is a level BELOW you...etc etc. Probably not the best solution but would stop higher levels sniping lowbies.

I don't know...but it seems like you pvp'ers are getting shafted because the game is forcing you to have equal win/loss ratios...despite how well you play or are geared. That seems to be a major flaw and in my mind makes me DEFINATELY NOT want to play pvp. I can proudly say that I have NEVER BEEN beaten by anyone...and my win/loss total of 0/0 proves it!
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Re: I Quit

Postby Illy_the_Red » Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:03 am

Finnius wrote:I don't pvp. Hate it. But from reading this thread something sinister is going on that you people haven't addressed yet. If I have say...a 40% crit chance because of gems or whatever...BUT I have been on a winning streak...venan will basically ignore my crit chance and I will start getting less and less crits. Same with dodge. Well that's not fair at all is it? I should be getting a crit (on average) 2 out of every 5 hits (40%). Are you telling me that basically this game is ignoring your stats and predetermining the win even before you start..based on your winning streak? Well if that's the case what is the point of even doing pvp? You admit you are locked in a 50/50 ratio. That's not fair. If someone is a better player...better geared, etc. Then his/her ratio SHOULD ALWAYS be better than 50/50. The game can't sit there and determine that you have had a good streak so it's now time that some lower lever, lesser equipped person MUST beat you to get you back to the 50/50 model. If this is truly the case then you all should boycott the pvp aspect.

Wouldn't a simpler rating system reward by points? 1 point for beating someone that the game feels you are stat-equal to. 2 points if he is a level above you. MINUS 2 points if he is a level BELOW you...etc etc. Probably not the best solution but would stop higher levels sniping lowbies.

I don't know...but it seems like you pvp'ers are getting shafted because the game is forcing you to have equal win/loss ratios...despite how well you play or are geared. That seems to be a major flaw and in my mind makes me DEFINATELY NOT want to play pvp. I can proudly say that I have NEVER BEEN beaten by anyone...and my win/loss total of 0/0 proves it!


I've been assured that this isn't how PvP works...however it didn't assure me :)

This is what I think is causing most of the issues in PvP. There is clearly some hidden mechanic that is affecting the system but nobody will come forward and explain it. All we get is 'its Elo'.

'Its Elo' doesn't explain the weird things I've seen first hand but also heard anecdotally. Mainly the weirdness I see revolves around how much rating I gain/lose. It apparently isn't dependent on league but rating difference...but what I see doesn't match what I'm being told.

I have noticed a decline in the speed of matching at high levels (talking plat II here), so I hope people aren't dropping it over this issue. Down at gold II where my other PvP toon is, I get matches no problem, any time of day.
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Re: I Quit

Postby beekeo » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:21 am

The PvP matching system DOES NOT HANDICAP YOUR STATS.

ELO is a performance-based match making system. If you have a strong, well-built character AND are good at timing your abilities and disrupting your opponent's strategies, you will win. the ELO system assigns you a rating from this and attempts to match you against someone with a similar rating.

A similar ELO performance rating match-up is the best way that we have found to create a fair fight.
in PvP beta we looked at Might and Level, but this does not factor in human element: does the player know what they are doing when they selected those abilities, gems and enchantments and do they know how to use them.

As you win, the rating goes up. As the rating goes up, you face opponents who are also high-performing duelists.

Eventually, you will be matched with opponents who:
- have a stronger character (level, gems, gear, enchants, ability selection)
- are better at reading your strategy and disrupting it
- both of the above.

Once you lose, your rating will decline and you will be matched with people who have a similar mix of character strength and pvp skill, at least as best as the system can determine based upon your PvP history.

As a result, most players will find equilibrium once their Win/Loss record approaches 50/50.
50/50 is not locked in, it is not what we expect you to be happy with.
If you want to win more than half of the time, get better gear.
Analyze your strategies.
Play the other classes, learn how they work, find the ability rotations that are most effective. Then learn how they can be disrupted and how to best recover from that disruption.

I'll talk to the programmers and see if someone can make a post that explains the formula that generates the ranking difference at the end of the match.

In the meantime, here is the wikipedia page that discusses different implementations of the ELO system used in professional chess tournament match making:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system#Theory
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