PVP Death Blow to Guilds and Game

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PVP Death Blow to Guilds and Game

Postby lorddune » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:39 pm

Venan, you are killing guilds with your decision to give away recipes some of us had to grind for for months for and can now purchase in the pvp shop for peanuts.

Add in the fact that you get hero tokens from PVP and you will see a huge loss of mercs in raids. Also, in guild toons who are mighty may not raid in lower level raids, since they can now farm tokens and ridiculously cheap items from pvp'ing.

One of my guild brothers got a recipe in 5 fights that some people spent hundreds of trips to a dungeon to get. How is that good for the game? How is awarding Hero Tokens in PVP good for the game? Also adding the 2nd enchant slot made little sense. You should have at bare minimum tied getting a 2nd enchantment slot in to a quest or somehow make it an earned reward.

You need to make the PVP area tied into the guild experience somehow, otherwise this will merely turn into another Ken vs. Ryu fighting game where guilds have no purpose anymore imho.

I for one wish you had never added pvp to the game and had spent that time on new areas, quests, monsters, etc.
Last edited by lorddune on Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PVP Death Blow to Guilds and Game

Postby Bbbb » Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:58 pm

lorddune wrote:Venan, you are killing guilds with your decision to give away recipes some of us had to grind for for months for and can now purchase in the pvp shop for peanuts.

Yes, they are insanely cheap. I picked up 1H and Ice in like 18 hours and didn't spend a single GS getting there. I really think it was a bad decision on Venan's part to make it so cheap.

One of my guild brothers got a potion in 5 fights that some people spent hundreds of trips to a dungeon to get.

I don't know a potion that drops from a dungeon. What potion are you talking about?

I'm not too worried about PvE surviving. The essence/flux payout isn't good on PvP. You do 4 battles and then you are waiting again (without spending GS). Also after a couple weeks, a lot of players will be bored with PvP.
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Re: PVP Death Blow to Guilds and Game

Postby lorddune » Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:25 am

One of my guild brothers got a potion in 5 fights that some people spent hundreds of trips to a dungeon to get.


Good catch, Bbbb, I meant recipes. Edited it above. And yeah, you can buy the Power: Defense recipe from the coins you get from about 5 wins in pvp. I have a toon that has spent well over 200 trips into GK without getting that recipe. Don't even get me started on the Karnak recipes. Those will also be sold in the pvp store from what I understand.
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Re: PVP Death Blow to Guilds and Game

Postby Lamorack » Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:16 am

I could not agree more. The decision to allow cheap purchases of enchantments that carry over into Pve was a game changer and a huge slap in the face for those of us that value the guild and development character of BOH. You just changed the flavor if the game. I hope you intended to do so. Sad day for me.
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Re: PVP Death Blow to Guilds and Game

Postby DreamingDæmon » Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:32 am

lorddune wrote:Venan, you are killing guilds with your decision to give away recipes some of us had to grind for for months for and can now purchase in the pvp shop for peanuts.

lorddune wrote:One of my guild brothers got a recipe in 5 fights that some people spent hundreds of trips to a dungeon to get.

Although I agree that it's galling to see recipes I took forever and endless energy to get given away for turning up to the Coliseum, this in itself has no impact on Guild activity. Farming dungeons is a solo activity that doesn't benefit the Guild, so is PvP.

lorddune wrote:Add in the fact that you get hero tokens from PVP and you will see a huge loss of mercs in raids. Also, in guild toons who are mighty may not raid in lower level raids, since they can now farm tokens and ridiculously cheap items from pvp'ing.

Players see much more benefit from mercing higher level raids, which give greater HT rewards, with Valour as well. Mighty Guildies can just merc a higher raid in preference to a low in-guild raid, for greater benefit than PvP. In fact, as PvP uses a different energy, if they PvP for tokens rather than mercing, they can still do the guild raid too, so PvP actually works to your benefit in this scenario.

lorddune wrote:Also adding the 2nd enchant slot made little sense. You should have at bare minimum tied getting a 2nd enchantment slot in to a quest or somehow make it an earned reward.

I agree that this would have made more sense as an unlockable. A PvE unlockable, at that, perhaps an early Vile Realm quest (how many toons now are above level 3 enchants when they get to Vile Realm? Not many.). Removing the quest requirement from unlocking enchants and making them available from level 16 is a mistake, as tying them to the Lucky Blades quest and early Portals quests gave them flavour. Now it's just another generic powerup.

lorddune wrote:You need to make the PVP area tied into the guild experience somehow...

No, no, and thrice no!!! Too many people want nothing to do with PvP. Making it a guild thing will see pressure put on people to do PvP when they don't want to, to "put the guild first", "help out the team", "stop being so selfish" etc which will do nobody any good. Making PvP participation mandatory will just annoy even more people than are currently annoyed with it in its current "constantly in your face but not actually obligatory" incarnation.

Bbbb wrote:Also after a couple weeks, a lot of players will be bored with PvP.

I don't even give it that long, I'm already seeing people say "meh" - and that's just the ones who bothered trying it, many I see are still on 0 fights.

I notice the PvP leaderboards don't seem to give us a way of seeing just how many toons are actually PvPing, the way all the other leaderboards do. That was one thing I was looking forward to when I heard that weekly PvP leaderboards were coming.
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Re: PVP Death Blow to Guilds and Game

Postby Win_or_Lose » Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:50 am

I completely disagree with everything on this thread.

Quite rightly Venan is making it easier for newer players to catch up with older ones. Otherwise they can never catch up. I understand we older players worked hard to get these recipes, but we have benefited from them for a long time.

To make PvP balanced everyone needs access to all the relevant recipes without doing solo dungeons 200+ times.

Also a great PvP update like this, while optional for all, will really help to grow the game which can only benefit guilds. Raiding is still the best way to get essence which everybody who plays will need once they are able to enchant.
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Re: PVP Death Blow to Guilds and Game

Postby Bbbb » Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:51 am

Let's stop the pretense of PvP being optional. Now it is either buy recipes w gs or PvP. Anybody who is dungeon farming these recipes is insane.

However, once u get recipes, PvP becomes optional because the lockbox appears to be an inferior way to get essence and flux.
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Re: PVP Death Blow to Guilds and Game

Postby Illy_the_Red » Thu Jul 03, 2014 7:06 am

DreamingDaemon wrote:
lorddune wrote:Venan, you are killing guilds with your decision to give away recipes some of us had to grind for for months for and can now purchase in the pvp shop for peanuts.

lorddune wrote:One of my guild brothers got a recipe in 5 fights that some people spent hundreds of trips to a dungeon to get.

Although I agree that it's galling to see recipes I took forever and endless energy to get given away for turning up to the Coliseum, this in itself has no impact on Guild activity. Farming dungeons is a solo activity that doesn't benefit the Guild, so is PvP.

lorddune wrote:Add in the fact that you get hero tokens from PVP and you will see a huge loss of mercs in raids. Also, in guild toons who are mighty may not raid in lower level raids, since they can now farm tokens and ridiculously cheap items from pvp'ing.

Players see much more benefit from mercing higher level raids, which give greater HT rewards, with Valour as well. Mighty Guildies can just merc a higher raid in preference to a low in-guild raid, for greater benefit than PvP. In fact, as PvP uses a different energy, if they PvP for tokens rather than mercing, they can still do the guild raid too, so PvP actually works to your benefit in this scenario.

lorddune wrote:Also adding the 2nd enchant slot made little sense. You should have at bare minimum tied getting a 2nd enchantment slot in to a quest or somehow make it an earned reward.

I agree that this would have made more sense as an unlockable. A PvE unlockable, at that, perhaps an early Vile Realm quest (how many toons now are above level 3 enchants when they get to Vile Realm? Not many.). Removing the quest requirement from unlocking enchants and making them available from level 16 is a mistake, as tying them to the Lucky Blades quest and early Portals quests gave them flavour. Now it's just another generic powerup.

lorddune wrote:You need to make the PVP area tied into the guild experience somehow...

No, no, and thrice no!!! Too many people want nothing to do with PvP. Making it a guild thing will see pressure put on people to do PvP when they don't want to, to "put the guild first", "help out the team", "stop being so selfish" etc which will do nobody any good. Making PvP participation mandatory will just annoy even more people than are currently annoyed with it in its current "constantly in your face but not actually obligatory" incarnation.

Bbbb wrote:Also after a couple weeks, a lot of players will be bored with PvP.

I don't even give it that long, I'm already seeing people say "meh" - and that's just the ones who bothered trying it, many I see are still on 0 fights.

I notice the PvP leaderboards don't seem to give us a way of seeing just how many toons are actually PvPing, the way all the other leaderboards do. That was one thing I was looking forward to when I heard that weekly PvP leaderboards were coming.


I would've said exactly the same DD. I especially agree that there should be more things should be 'unlockables' tied to the questing aspect of the game (i.e. the main game), not fewer.
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Re: PVP Death Blow to Guilds and Game

Postby Lamorack » Thu Jul 03, 2014 9:12 am

Nbw exactly, if unwittingly, underlines the issue. In a quest based game as this was, that change is the definition if destruction of game rationale. DD's contribution is thoughtful. I differ however, with his belief that pvp is now optional. That, as things stand is simply not the case. The dynamic has cganged and will remain so after the initial novelty wears off.
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Re: PVP Death Blow to Guilds and Game

Postby Darkhorse » Thu Jul 03, 2014 10:49 am

I'm trying to understand the complaint here and put myself in players' shoes to understand the concern, but honestly the line of logic doesn't hold up.

How exactly was the act of farming for recipes in solo dungeons related to guilds? It was a solo activity prior, and it still is. Earning the recipes through PVP is just a new option for solo players.

In regards to the recipes being priced for relatively low cost in the Coliseum, that was on purpose and intended as part of our design. We've long felt that the enchantment system was obscured by recipes being much too difficult to obtain. This was one way to ease the burden of getting them. If you want to farm dungeons for the drop or purchase them in the Black Market, those options are still available. I'm having a hard time understanding how having more options to obtain a recipe is a bad thing. We'll evaluate if we want to up the drop rate from dungeons in the future, and I suspect that may be something we do. I understand the feeling of "being cheated" by the fact that they are now easier to obtain, but this tends to be the case in any MMO/RPG on the market today. The benefit of farming to get that enchant was that you had it for nearly a year and a half when others didn't. It's absolutely important that we move toward players having easier access to the enchants. The disparity will still be in what level your enchants are, and rightfully so from a game design perspective. As others in this thread mentioned, PVE is still a much more efficient way of getting materials to improve upon your enchantments.

In regards to hero tokens in PVP, I think you're mistaking hero score? The only way to obtain hero tokens currently in PVP is via the feats, and these are pretty minor amounts in the overall scheme of earning hero tokens. We've discussed a way to convert marks into hero tokens, but for now we're going to keep evaluating.

Having a 2nd enchant slot just gives players another way to progress their character. The code to implement this has actually been in the game for a long time, but we were running into some technical hurdles to be able to implement it in the way we wanted. I understand the sentiment that this is a game "built around questing". By that same logic, this game was originally a single player RPG (no guilds) that stopped at level 20, but to get there you had to grind because there weren't enough quests. Sounds like a much different game from what we have now, doesn't it? Raiding, Guilds, and now PVP are a large and important part of this game. As it continues to evolve, we'll add other things to the game that will also be important.

Again, I'm really not sure how any of this ties into being a "death blow" to guild and the game. Not wanting to PVP is understandable if it is not an activity you enjoy. However, many players do enjoy it, and we will continue to support it for the (large) amount of players who are engaged in it. In regards to tying the guild experience into PVP, that's something we've considered, but we'd probably want to do it in a way similar to PVE, where the activities are relatively exclusive and PVPing for your guild gives your guild some benefit in PVP.

If new quests, new monsters, and new raids are your thing... good news! We're working on that stuff still and Chapters 4 and 5 of the Vile Realm are in the pipeline!
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