What does it mean to be "overpowered"? Backswing.

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Re: What does it mean to be "overpowered"? Backswing.

Postby Bbbb » Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:11 pm

Wyntre wrote:Ilyana: Yes, I played the game hard through mid-2012 and only recently came back.


You realize that the game only started in Nov 2011 so you couldn't have more than 1 year of game experience - not years as you claim.

If I had to nerf a Justie, Backswing isn't anywhere near the top of the list. SS, Jugg, Stagger, Heroic Will are all bigger issues. Backswing is no more an issue than say Arcane Shield. AS penalties you for actually hitting the Mage - you invest in Accuracy and you get a penalty for it.
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Re: What does it mean to be "overpowered"? Backswing.

Postby svako » Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:00 pm

Wyntre wrote:Svako: My enchantments are on my armor, so I don't understand your "isn't mitigated by armor." No, it's not mitigated by the armor stat--never said it was.

My point is simply this: backswing penalizes a high dodging stat.

I think that backswing should be a percentage of the damage if it were to hit (and not crit).

As the system is, I don't have a choice whether to try to dodge; I automatically try to dodge. If I had the choice, I might prefer to let the seismic through (as an example), which does 60 percent weapon damage and knockback--instead of 100 percent weapon damage from the backswing. This is especially true if I've countered with defend, where sometimes extending through countering a seismic or other knockback skill is a strategy. I'm not sure where you're getting 160 percent dmg. For attacks that do low damage, backswing is too high since it can actually do higher damage than if the attack hit.

That's what I mean by "punishes a high dodge stat." It can do more damage than it would if the attack had hit, and that's punishment for a high stat.

I don't understand how this concept could be any clearer. Perhaps I'm not explaining something well.


I thought you mean armor stat, so i wanted to correct you... but thats not what is important here. What you have to realize here is that backswing is the only way melee justi can deal with dodge. We have no way to reduce opponents dodge chance(accu enchant is bad, so can't be taken as an option), we have no way to slow our opponent, we can't apply debuffs when we get dodged(dodged bleed has 0% chance to apply bleed and backswing doesn't apply bleed as well).
When WM gets its attack dodged he does half the dmg and can still apply debuff(dodged frozen shard does half dmg + can still apply slow on opponent), which is more powerfull than pure dmg from backswing(which is not even 100% chance, so it statisticaly procs 3 of 4). So which one of these two are OP?

About the 160% dmg: When you get hit by seismic, brutal strike is the following move, thats the 160% dmg going your way to deal with.
Ideal scenario vs WM is: undefended seismic, brutal, heroic, brutal, stun, execute, spit on dead WMs body covered in blood... so once the seismic is dodged, that bonus 40% dmg you take from backswing(if procs) is nothing compared to that combo.

Wyntre wrote:For attacks that do low damage, backswing is too high since it can actually do higher damage than if the attack hit.


Attacks? Use singular here pls, cause its only about seismic. Every other melee move have bigger dmg(brutal, execute if used right) or same dmg and debuff(wound).

Conclusion:
Justies were nerfed enough, its time to leave them alone and take a look at other classes!!!
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Re: What does it mean to be "overpowered"? Backswing.

Postby Wyntre » Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:54 am

Good grief. I played 2011 through mid-2012 and came back around January of this year. If you think someone who has played that long is a newbie, feel free to think so. What an odd quibble, but very well.

I understand that justis need a way to deal with dodge. However, the mechanics of backswing mean that putting points in dodge puts an opponent at a disadvantage. Perhaps justi attacks should have the chance to apply the debuff (knockback) even if dodged. However, they should *not ever* do *more* damage than they do if they hit.

If my dodge breaks the supercombo that justis use to slay mages, I shouldn't be punished by getting more damage. Dodge should be rewarded, not punished.

That's my issue. There are a lot of things I'd prefer to change about justis, but this is the thing I can point to and prove it's unfair. As it stands, backswing punishes the upping of a stat (dodge) by doing MORE damage than it does if it lands.

Arcane shield affects the next attack rather than the current attack, so I don't think it's a proper comparison. You aren't punished for landing the attack; the attack goes through just as you intended. You aren't penalized for accuracy so much as the mage gets a consolation prize for the hit. You need to land attacks to win anyway (unless you're a justi, and then just miss until you win!).

Thanks for the discussion, even if I suspect several of us are talking past each other.
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Re: What does it mean to be "overpowered"? Backswing.

Postby DiMoSauR » Thu Jun 25, 2015 4:30 am

After all the explanation you've got,hopefully u understood it,if u didn't then yes,You are a newb and since you've missed 2 and bit more years out of the game ,to much has changed and and you don't know how much A justicar has suffered
PS
Another thing that wasn't mentioned ,Pve plays a major role so u can farm your essence and flux and silver,specially on onslaught raids, Justicars Have Had To Pay and Spend 2ICE the amount of MONEY and TIME to farm for their materials to try and compete in pvp, WE'VE had such a rough time and WE STILL do for the past 2years and STILL Nothing has been done,
I hope all these comments from fellow players that have been in the game for the past 2years and more,every day,helped u out
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Re: What does it mean to be "overpowered"? Backswing.

Postby svako » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:43 pm

How does backswing punish dodge in statistical way:
Lets asume i have 3 points in backswing(75% to proc) and you have 30% or 40% dodge...
1. 30% dodge = 0.3 * 0.25 = 0.075 = 7.5% to completly avoid hit
so i "lowered" your dodge chance by 75%

2. 40% dodge = 0.4 * 0.25 = 0.1 = 10% to completly avoid hit
so i "lowered" your dodge chance by 75%

See the pattern here?
So backswing basicaly "lowers" enemy dodge chance by 75%, but without applying anything(knockback or status effect).

Caltrops for example lowers dodge by 50% without changing effect of ability you use(applies status effects, does full dmg, etc...) and slows opponent. I would trade backswing for caltrops at any time...

Justicars doesn't need more nerfing!!!

EDIT: math is OK now ;)
Last edited by svako on Sun Jun 28, 2015 3:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What does it mean to be "overpowered"? Backswing.

Postby Gary_ » Sat Jun 27, 2015 5:51 pm

I love math...justicars are brilliant
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Re: What does it mean to be "overpowered"? Backswing.

Postby svako » Sun Jun 28, 2015 3:27 am

LoL i have to stop posting math on forums in the middle of my night shift, mixed the numbers again :)
But still backswing is not OP :)
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Re: What does it mean to be "overpowered"? Backswing.

Postby fatius » Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:40 pm

Traducción
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Re: What does it mean to be "overpowered"? Backswing.

Postby Phunbaba » Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:35 am

Between seismic and backswing I prefer backswing every time. Apply to most if not all JC attacks even. All the classes seem to have one or two powers the other classes absolutely hate. I've taken more damage thanks to arcane shield and them ice spike things then I dealt myself to the wizard. Wizards only half to do like 3/4~1/2 my HP in damage because I do the rest. And the rest is easy to do when you can instantly cast while I'm not defending. I have riposte and haste, damned if you do damned if you don't; plus so many debufs it ain't funny. Unless you want to give up something then leave their BS alone.
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Re: What does it mean to be "overpowered"? Backswing.

Postby Omnipotent » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:14 am

Backswing should mirror riposte in it should have a 60% chance of proc. 100% weapon damage that can crit, but not affected by vengeance. If using the Defend ability, the damage mitigation should apply to the backswing damage.

This is fair and proper in my opinion and if you disagree, please explain why instead of just flinging verbal feces.

Thanks,

Omni
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