What does it mean to be "overpowered"? Backswing.

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What does it mean to be "overpowered"? Backswing.

Postby Wyntre » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:06 pm

I'm a Gold 3 PvPer who just unlocked the PM raid yesterday, so I'm neither a newbie nor uber. I've played for years, although I took a three year hiatus. My primary is a mage.

:geek: I've been thinking about what it means to claim that a skill or mechanic is OP. One possible yardstick is that it's OP or unfair if it deliberately subverts the game mechanics.

Backswing punishes dodging. No other stat besides dodging actively harms someone when they pump it, but a toon with high dodge fighting a justicar will be handicapped because of dodge. Often, when a justi punishes me for dodging, they take more health from me than they would have if the shot had gone through. Consider receiving a backswing for dodging a seismic: instead of 60 percent weapon damage, there is 100 percent damage. The weakness of the Justi class is supposed to be how often they (don't) hit, but this turns their primary weakness into a class strength and unbalances PvP.

What's particularly unfair about this backswing that there's no way to choose whether to try to dodge the seismic. Maybe I'd prefer to let it through and take the time penalty (mitigated by my armor), but I don't have that option as dodging is passive and stat-based. Further, bypassing ice armor is another advantage of backswing--and another way to punish a mage opponent with high dodge.

:!: TL;DR version: Backswing is the only skill I know that punishes people for upping a stat. This isn't good.

If you accept this conclusion that backswing is broken, how could it be fixed? :idea: One quick fix would help considerably: instead of doing 100 percent weapon damage, do half the damage that the attack would have done had it gone through (and no crits). Stop punishing dodge, which is not supposed to harm the dodger. It's fine to lessen the benefits of dodge, but it's unfair to turn dodging into a liability.

As a mage, I'm biased, but I also think it should be subject to the retaliation of ice armor. However, ice armor itself may be OP. Instead of retaliating 30 percent of my weapon as damage, as the text suggests it is, it should be 30 percent of the attack that hit it. That's the definition of retaliation, after all: sending some incoming damage back!

There are lots of things I'd like to change about justis (juggernaut is 100 percent effective, seriously?), but in all honesty, backswing is the one that seems to undermine gameplay by punishing folks for pumping a primary stat.
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Re: What does it mean to be "overpowered"? Backswing.

Postby DiMoSauR » Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:54 pm

And then u woke up....
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Re: What does it mean to be "overpowered"? Backswing.

Postby Mr_Op » Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:26 am

Op=Salad?
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Re: What does it mean to be "overpowered"? Backswing.

Postby Vexis_Larseker » Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:54 pm

So, let me get this straight. You want to make backswing do half attack damage (like spell dodge) except with only a 75% chance of working instead of 100% (like spell dodge) and no chance of applying status effects (like spell dodge)?

No sale.
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Re: What does it mean to be "overpowered"? Backswing.

Postby Jumper » Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:58 pm

Vexis_Larseker wrote:So, let me get this straight. You want to make backswing do half attack damage (like spell dodge) except with only a 75% chance of working instead of 100% (like spell dodge) and no chance of applying status effects (like spell dodge)?

No sale.


If you put it that way.... SURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol
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Re: What does it mean to be "overpowered"? Backswing.

Postby Wyntre » Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:03 pm

Oh, come on--at least address the substantive complaint. I did include a TL;DR line for people with short attention spans, after all.

Backswing punishes people for upping a stat (dodging). No other skill in the game punishes an opponent's stat increase.

Explain to me how that's legit.
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Re: What does it mean to be "overpowered"? Backswing.

Postby DiMoSauR » Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:08 pm

Wyntre wrote:Oh, come on--at least address the substantive complaint. I did include a TL;DR line for people with short attention spans, after all.

Backswing punishes people for upping a stat (dodging). No other skill in the game punishes an opponent's stat increase.

Explain to me how that's legit.
I would rather SS hit all times and who cares for backswing
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Re: What does it mean to be "overpowered"? Backswing.

Postby svako » Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:21 pm

Wyntre wrote:What's particularly unfair about this backswing that there's no way to choose whether to try to dodge the seismic. Maybe I'd prefer to let it through and take the time penalty (mitigated by my armor), but I don't have that option as dodging is passive and stat-based. Further, bypassing ice armor is another advantage of backswing--and another way to punish a mage opponent with high dodge.


First of all, time penalty from knockback isn't mitigated by armor, its mitigated by knockback resist enchant only.

So if I understand you right, you wanna take 60% dmg and knockback that can put in another BS(160% dmg) instead of 100% dmg and no knockback? Try to re-think this idea and you will move few leagues forward...
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Re: What does it mean to be "overpowered"? Backswing.

Postby Illy_the_Red » Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:02 pm

You've played for years, but took a three year break?
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Re: What does it mean to be "overpowered"? Backswing.

Postby Wyntre » Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:53 pm

Ilyana: Yes, I played the game hard through mid-2012 and only recently came back.

Svako: My enchantments are on my armor, so I don't understand your "isn't mitigated by armor." No, it's not mitigated by the armor stat--never said it was.

My point is simply this: backswing penalizes a high dodging stat.

I think that backswing should be a percentage of the damage if it were to hit (and not crit).

As the system is, I don't have a choice whether to try to dodge; I automatically try to dodge. If I had the choice, I might prefer to let the seismic through (as an example), which does 60 percent weapon damage and knockback--instead of 100 percent weapon damage from the backswing. This is especially true if I've countered with defend, where sometimes extending through countering a seismic or other knockback skill is a strategy. I'm not sure where you're getting 160 percent dmg. For attacks that do low damage, backswing is too high since it can actually do higher damage than if the attack hit.

That's what I mean by "punishes a high dodge stat." It can do more damage than it would if the attack had hit, and that's punishment for a high stat.

I don't understand how this concept could be any clearer. Perhaps I'm not explaining something well.
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