Snapcast needs to go

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Re: Snapcast needs to go

Postby Mikl » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:56 am

Ilyana wrote:Is it fair that mages have a stun that is for no apparent reason far faster than the other classes?

Yeah, the reason for this design choice is completely beyond my understanding.

All classes have their more or less cheesy abilities for pvp. Snap, Jugg, Smoke Bomb, among others. But Icy Grasp just being faster? As a SW or Justi you have a problem attacking with your own stun when the WM has 0.0x seconds left on the timer, cause the mage can squeeze IG in before you land your hit. Why mages need this advantage I just don't understand.
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Re: Snapcast needs to go

Postby svako » Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:38 am

EricM wrote:Not to be that guy... but...
If the Justi has 25% dodge, 12% block, and 61% knockback...
Seismic has a 63% (100%-25%-12%) of landing when not defended, and if it does, it'll only knockback the enemy 0.55s (39% of 1.4).


oopsie, a little mistake occured in the simpliest part of the math(the knockback one)... but still, you see the point :)
and this: Seismic has a 63% (100%-25%-12%) is wrong, my math is right in this part. You can't just + the chances. If you have 25% dodge and 12% block its not 25+12=37% chance to avoid by using any of it. Its 25%(dodge chance)+(12%(block chance) * 75%(chance you dont proc dodge)) = 34%(chance to avoid by dodging or blocking). I'm 100% sure with this. Simple prove, if you would have 50% dodge and 50% block, it would bring you to 100% chance to avoid it by one of these using your math, while the true chance is 50% + (50% * 50%)=75%

Jumper wrote:You are forgetting a pretty important point..... knockbacks give you relief on cooldowns. Believe it or not, with snapcast you can get in trouble with attacks not "cooldowned" yet. My point is then the WM would be a justie. If all three classes have huge knockback, then kb resist becomes huge, if not then there is variety. All I have to say is that in masters, the justies don't seem to have problems timing their seismics so they are undefended. Instead of whining and complaining, change your build and strategy.

Oh yeah.... imagine how useless jug becomes if a wm just knocks you back to oblivion


First of all, I'm not whining, nor complaining, I just did the math to compare snap vs seismic. Feel free to read my other posts where I say PvP is balanced like it never was before. My build and strategy is pretty ok and I'm happy with it(I'm plat2/plat1 with 43k might which is not excelent, but pretty ok and i can live with it). Timing of seismic is not that hard, but there are times you fail to do that and can't do nothing about it.
I agree with the part about reliefing cooldowns and its hard to compare two single abilities without looking at other class benefits ofc. I love playing JC and I enjoy PvP as much as it is possible.
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Re: Snapcast needs to go

Postby EricM » Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:10 am

svako wrote:
EricM wrote:Not to be that guy... but...
If the Justi has 25% dodge, 12% block, and 61% knockback...
Seismic has a 63% (100%-25%-12%) of landing when not defended, and if it does, it'll only knockback the enemy 0.55s (39% of 1.4).


oopsie, a little mistake occured in the simpliest part of the math(the knockback one)... but still, you see the point :)
and this: Seismic has a 63% (100%-25%-12%) is wrong, my math is right in this part. You can't just + the chances. If you have 25% dodge and 12% block its not 25+12=37% chance to avoid by using any of it. Its 25%(dodge chance)+(12%(block chance) * 75%(chance you dont proc dodge)) = 34%(chance to avoid by dodging or blocking). I'm 100% sure with this. Simple prove, if you would have 50% dodge and 50% block, it would bring you to 100% chance to avoid it by one of these using your math, while the true chance is 50% + (50% * 50%)=75%



In every other game, you'd be correct. The chance to dodge would be rolled first, and then on a failed dodge, the game would roll a block. But not in boh ;) To not undervalue block, it actually is additive. So with 50% block and dodge, you can't get hit (but you can still be crit - which is a different roll altogether). I'm 100% sure on this - been confirmed multiple times. They treat it like a d100 roll. If you have 20% dodge and 40% block, 1-20 is a dodge, 21-60 is a block, 61-100 is a hit.

It's actually why, for a while, my pvp strategy centered around 55-57% dodge + 12% block (So that on a defend, seismic has a 1-3% of actually hitting me). It's not as great as it sounds however because keep in mind - warmages and shadow walkers both have skills that can lower dodge/block, and additionally warmages' attacks always do damage despite being dodged/blocked.

One thing I always wanted to try was a SW with 58% dodge through gems, 68% damage mitigation through enchants and 10 resist gems, and 33.6% block through shield + block enchants. Even without defending, any attack would only land 8.4% of the time, and even if it landed, it would only do 32% damage... Too bad block enchants are useless for pve and would require a whole new set with exorbitant transfer costs :p That and this past year's updates have started making defense more and more useless (defense enchant nerf, creation of magma jet and fracture stacks, pvp gear bonuses, etc.) to the point where even attempting the above build would end up being useless vs a wm or sw.
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Re: Snapcast needs to go

Postby svako » Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:05 pm

EricM wrote:
svako wrote:
EricM wrote:Not to be that guy... but...
If the Justi has 25% dodge, 12% block, and 61% knockback...
Seismic has a 63% (100%-25%-12%) of landing when not defended, and if it does, it'll only knockback the enemy 0.55s (39% of 1.4).


oopsie, a little mistake occured in the simpliest part of the math(the knockback one)... but still, you see the point :)
and this: Seismic has a 63% (100%-25%-12%) is wrong, my math is right in this part. You can't just + the chances. If you have 25% dodge and 12% block its not 25+12=37% chance to avoid by using any of it. Its 25%(dodge chance)+(12%(block chance) * 75%(chance you dont proc dodge)) = 34%(chance to avoid by dodging or blocking). I'm 100% sure with this. Simple prove, if you would have 50% dodge and 50% block, it would bring you to 100% chance to avoid it by one of these using your math, while the true chance is 50% + (50% * 50%)=75%



In every other game, you'd be correct. The chance to dodge would be rolled first, and then on a failed dodge, the game would roll a block. But not in boh ;) To not undervalue block, it actually is additive. So with 50% block and dodge, you can't get hit (but you can still be crit - which is a different roll altogether). I'm 100% sure on this - been confirmed multiple times. They treat it like a d100 roll. If you have 20% dodge and 40% block, 1-20 is a dodge, 21-60 is a block, 61-100 is a hit.

It's actually why, for a while, my pvp strategy centered around 55-57% dodge + 12% block (So that on a defend, seismic has a 1-3% of actually hitting me). It's not as great as it sounds however because keep in mind - warmages and shadow walkers both have skills that can lower dodge/block, and additionally warmages' attacks always do damage despite being dodged/blocked.

One thing I always wanted to try was a SW with 58% dodge through gems, 68% damage mitigation through enchants and 10 resist gems, and 33.6% block through shield + block enchants. Even without defending, any attack would only land 8.4% of the time, and even if it landed, it would only do 32% damage... Too bad block enchants are useless for pve and would require a whole new set with exorbitant transfer costs :p That and this past year's updates have started making defense more and more useless (defense enchant nerf, creation of magma jet and fracture stacks, pvp gear bonuses, etc.) to the point where even attempting the above build would end up being useless vs a wm or sw.


Confirmed by who? Devs? Show the tread they confirmed this please. I have to see it with my own eyes...

If what you are saying is true, its against any logic. Dodge and block are totaly different abilities and have to be rolled separately. Dodge first, or block first, doesnt matter, result would be same... 25%+(12%*75%)=12%+(25%*88%). I just dont want to believe its just counted together...

Would be rly nice if devs can put some info about this issue here(if any of them are reading forums ofc :) ).
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Re: Snapcast needs to go

Postby EricM » Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:41 pm

It was confirmed by Dave in my whisper ages ago lol. I don't think there's officially been a thread on the forums about it since very few outside of the min-maxers and hardcore pvp enthusiasts care, most of which already know. I unfortunately don't have a screenshot. Unless they're willing to post here confirming it, you'll have to take my word for it.

That and I'm a maxed SW who has actually tested it out vs. justis. If you have a justi, we can have a couple challenges and we can test it directly if seismic will ever hit me. Easiest way would for me to have 58% dodge, 12% block (68% dodge-32% block while defending). Under your method, seismic would hit through defend 22% of the time. Under mine, it would never hit.

If my understanding of the damage rolls is correct, then you could still crit my with seismic, but a direct hit would be impossible while I dodge.
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Re: Snapcast needs to go

Postby Jumper » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:50 pm

lol Eric, didn't we just have this argument a few months ago.
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Re: Snapcast needs to go

Postby svako » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:53 pm

Your word is enough for me, I was just very surpriced to see that and was wondering if there is any official post about this. And when you say you have it tested, its a done thing :)
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Re: Snapcast needs to go

Postby EricM » Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:30 pm

svako wrote:Your word is enough for me, I was just very surpriced to see that and was wondering if there is any official post about this. And when you say you have it tested, its a done thing :)


Haha, yeah, it surprised me too - I first realized it mid-last year when I noticed I wasn't being hit by seismic and that's what led me to investigate. Unfortunately, despite knowing that, it doesn't change much in terms of pvp strategy. Block enchants are still meh at best (dodge/def/stat resist and maybe kb resist is a better choice for sws, wms, 2h justis) unless you're a 1h justi... but i don't have one so i'll defer to ceka and zelp's opinions on it there.
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Re: Snapcast needs to go

Postby Bango » Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:32 pm

So 58% dodge with a 60% proc is balanced.
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Re: Snapcast needs to go

Postby EricM » Sat Feb 14, 2015 4:07 pm

Bango2004 wrote:So 58% dodge with a 60% proc is balanced.


Very much so ;) ...considering I'm 71k+ might and running 1 melee gem, 1 crit gem, 1 crit power gem to make that happen...
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