Official PvP Beta Feedback Thread- ARCHIVED

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Re: Official PvP Beta Feedback Thread

Postby DnT_TheTaken » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:08 am

Saint_Kai wrote:Okay, I got enough GS finally, for a second spec, and I spent some respec tokens to experiment a few different ways. Going to post my newer thoughts on the balance subject. My first PvP spec, I got rid of Flaming Pyre and Ice Storm totally, as they see little to no use in a pvp match (ice storm, maybe, if going full ice). But since the primary importance of pvp is balance, I will compare aspects of the 3 classes to see where they stand. Just take this as someone who has moved up through the might brackets and experimented with various specs, and is now sharing thoughts for feedback.

Defense:
Justicar - wears the heaviest armor and shields, which grants the biggest defense bonuses. There are no downsides towards equipping this heavier armor. No real defensive abilities, but getting hit does trigger two of their abilities: Vengeance and Stagger.

Shadow Walker - Maneuver, which increases dodge by 15%. This works well with Riposte(50% chance), as a dodge enables them to finish their current attack. Combined with their quick attacks, they can choose to defend at the last second which increases their dodge chance even more, and thus finish a Defend near-instantly and get right back to attacking. They don't tend to suffer the 0.5 second dely too much. Urgency also triggers on being hit.

War Mage - Ice Shield, which has a 30% proc rate at max. However, this does nothing for the current attack; only the next one. It's usefulness, then, can be negated by the opponent using a lower damage, or non-damage ability. Frequently, with Shadow Walkers, they can easily remove it with Caltrops, Ensnare, Smoke Bomb, and Reflexive strike, of which most are available at any one time. Justicars have Radiant Light and Wound, but also can use Seismic blow or Stunning Blow, as damage isn't the main concern there; just the secondary effect. Overall usefulness is low, unless it procs several times in rapid succession. Has happened, but rare. Opponent can usually land the damaging blow they want to, so overall damage mitigation is low. It can mitigate DoT damage, but as it is generally easily removed, it usually only mitigates one or two ticks at most through the fight.

Clear advantage goes to Justicars, with Shadow Walkers a close second. Heavy Armor and Dodge works all the time, while Ice Shield does not.

Debuffs
Justicar - Wound can be applied with any attack, and stacks up to 3. I've found that, once it goes up, it hardly ever goes back down due to staying up for 5 seconds and getting refreshed with at least every other attack. Which means that, even if I stop or delay or defend against most other attacks, I'm still against the clock to do more damage than the wound is doing to me. Frequently this means I'm taking at least 2k damage a second with a full wound stack. Only a few times have a managed to get enough dodges, blocks, and resists, that the Wound debuff falls off. This gets even nastier with Stagger. Even if I manage to keep them stunned, interrupted, and push-backed, that only means that I will get a Stagger debuff, which increases the DoT damage by 75%. Now I'm taking 3-4k a second, and I have to let them hit me with something to make it go away. The opponent is punished harshly for preventing the Justicar from attacking.

Shadow Walker - Caltrops is easily applied and reapplied through a fight, and is both a potent slow(25%?), lowers dodge chance, and has a fairly nasty DoT. Due to haste, it's recast time is less than it's duration, so it rarely goes down. The Poisoned debuff can be applied via any attack (even Ensnare!), and decreases resist to nature by 15% per debuff. But the real value is when paired with Neurotoxin, which gives them a 15% chance to crit with any damaging attack. Poison Cloud is a decent DoT, but so few Shadow Walkers spec for it since it really isn't needed. DoT's break stun, and they generally use Ensnare to reapply Caltrops and land a free Piercing Strike.

War Mage - Has 2 different slows which also lower dodge, and a DoT. All ice spells will apply the first slow, which is roughly 5% or so? Frozen Shards and Ice Storm will only apply the second slow, the more potent 15% (Chilled). However, due to cast times and the need to get other skills, Ice Storm is frequently not taken except by mages going pure ice. That leaves one spell to get the more potent slow up, and it is easily interrupted. On it's own, though, by a mage going pure ice, they easy enough to keep up. However, that means that the DoT debuff suffers. Ignite lasts 5 seconds, stacks up to three, and can only be applied by 3 spells: Incinerate, Fire Blast, and Flaming Pyre. A mage going pvp spec rarely takes Flaming Pyre due to cast time and lesser damage compared to Incinerate. That leaves two spells to apply the DoT, which only has a 75% chance to land at most (further reduced by spell dodges, blocks, and resists). Damage is fairly low unless you go full fire spec, which few mages do since survivability drops into the toilet; it's the reason most mages spec ice. Thus, trying to juggle spells to keep the debuffs up is incredibly difficult, then, meaning that an opponent has a good chance of only having one on them. Even if all get up, there is a good chance that they will fade. Lastly, Frozen can have a

Clear Advantage in this case is close, but I'd give it to the Justicar. Wound is more easily applied, does way more damage, and will generally stay up the entire fight. Stagger only makes it that much worse.

Attack Speed:
Justicar - Most of their abilities are fairly slow, although they have two knockback moves, a stun, and a move that refreshes them and makes their next move quicker. If they use Heroic Will early in the fight, near the beginning, odds are fairly good it will be up again before the fight is done. With increased health, this is a near certainty. These moves heavily counteract the slow attack timers.

Shadow Walkers - Reflexive Strike is one of the fastest moves in the game, and Caltrops slows an opponent down enough that their other abilities are generally faster to get off. They also have Urgency and Riposte which dramatically ups the number of attacks they can output.

War Mage - No passive haste or any kind. Their two slows, if both can be put up, can put them up to par with a Justicar (and perhaps a bit faster), but against a Shadow Walker, they may as well be trying to walk through a tar pit in a snow storm. Snap Cast is a fairly nice buff, but only has a 6% chance to proc at most, if a mage spends 3 points. Most spend just 1 point, just for the chance. It's not something that can be relied upon. Even at a 6% chance, I've never seen it proc more than twice a fight.... and sometimes I don't have a decent spell to use it on, because they are on cooldown! This might not be as much of a problem if the regular attack did decent damage, which it can with a staff. But most mages need a shield to survive, which leaves their regular attack as weak physical damage.

Clear Advantage in this case goes to Shadow Walker. No class can output so many attacks in a given time frame. Justicar can do so for short bursts, but only with a little luck and proper timing.

Attack Damage
Justicar - Hit fairly hard even with a 1h sword, and as mentioned before, Wound outputs a ton of damage all by itself. 2h damage hits much, much harder, although it can be hard to land attacks. However, since they will be hit so much before they can land an attack, by the time they do, they have a 3 stack of Vengeance and a Stagger debuff. So even if they can't land a lot of attacks, when they do, those attacks hit very, very hard. And all the while Wound is ticking away. Even if the attack is dodged, Backswing ensures that they still do damage.

Shadow Walker - Given their 15% crit chance (which is easy to get and maintain), Reflexive Strike generally crits for 2k, and Piercing Strike for 4-5k. Attack power seems lower than Justicar, but they make up for it in volume.

War Mage - seems to have the lowest damage of the three, although spells can't be fully dodged; they still do half damage. But they won't apply their debuff if they do (and trigger Riposte). Damage can be fairly good if fire-specced, but again, few mages do this due to low survivability. This increases the crit damage of fire spells (of which only 2 will generally be used) and increases the chance the Ignite debuff will crit. With only 2 spells and a less-than-stellar chance of landing the debuff (let along stacking it up to 3), most of a fire mages potential will go to waste, leaving the weaker ice mage as the only viable pvp spec. As far as 1h sword vs. shield goes... unlike Justicar, a 2h weapon isn't as viable because it makes the spells waaaay too long to cast. Incinerate and Ice Lance end up close to a 1 second cast time, leaving only Fire Blast and Frozen Shards to have any chance of success of landing. 1h sword can thus output more damage, and raise survivability with a shield.

Clear advantage seems to go the Justicar, which I find odd. I would have expected Shadow Walkers to deal more physical damage. However, I generally find their attack damage to be lower than Justicar. if Justicar is the heavy armor type, then shouldn't Shadow Walker excel in physical damage to make up for their weaker armor? Overall, I find I can last much longer against a Shadow Walker. War Mage fights seem to last fairly long, too, due to resists and spell dodges and ovedrall lower power of spells.

Synergy (spells and skills that work together)
Justicar - The combo is well known at this point. Seismic Slash, Brutal Strike, Stunning Blow and Heroic Will all work nicely to chain together several moves, while allowing variation in that combo. Vengeance, Weapon Focus, Rend and Frenzy all further enhance that. Their magical abilities aren't as nice, but other than a point in Radiant Light as a quick attack to remove buffs and add to Wound, the rest can be mostly ignored.

Shadow Walker - Corrosive Blades and Neurotoxin work well for the base, further enhanced by Piercing Strike And Reflexive Strike. This enables many attacks to be crits. The combo of Ensnare, Defend, Caltrops, and Piercing Strike is also well known, and allows for the debuff to be safely applied and a good 4-5k crit to start off the fight. Smoke Bomb helps refresh Ensnare, and usually gives the chance for another two Reflexive Strikes and a Piercing Strike. Their higher dodge works well with Riposte and Urgency to further up their attack speed. Their nature attacks also work well with Corrosive Blades and Neurotoxin, should a Shadow Walker go that route. But they can be safely ignored unless there are a few free points to grab something. The only disharmony, is using ensnare when caltrops is up, which can end up breaking ensnare. But this can be worked around by letting caltrops fade, and then reapply once ensnare is used.

War Mage - In contrast to the others, their fire and ice sides do not work well together, forcing a mage to pick one. the DoT, which needs to be maintained in order to get a decent dps, break Icy Grasp. Icy Grasp is needed to be able to land a big spell once in awhile. If I'm real good and paying real good attention to when the dot is ticking, and if the stars align, I can Icy Grasp and get off an incinerate between DoT ticks. Difficult to do, though, with slowing effects on me. Speaking of Icy Grasp, it increases damage from Ice Spells by 15% for 3 seconds. But when it lands, you have three choices: Incinerate for most damage and apply a burning (and thus give up the damage increase), or you can Frozen Shards/Ice Storm to apply the two slows (although you might be "wasting" Frozen Shards shorter cast time as a spell to use in regular combat). But if you want the biggest damage, Ice Lance 3 would benefit most from Icy Grasp's damage increase and it's longer cast time would benefit... but then you give up the 5 second pushback! No matter what you pick, the abilities work against each other, meaning you give something up. And sometimes when Snap Cast goes off when we are both at 0.00 seconds Waiting, I can't tell if my spell will go off before he picks his next attack, or before. So an Ice lance could be wasted if it goes off now.

War Mage is a series of trade offs, which I think might be the single biggest drawback compared to the other two. I have one combo that kinda sorta works... Icy Grasp > Defend > Frozen Shards > Fire Blast. If luck is with me, I apply the two slows and the DoT, although Fire Blast is weak without a DoT present. Even if it works, I'm left with Ice Lance and Incinerate... two long casting spells that will most likely be interrupted or defended against.

Clear Advantage is tough in this case, but I'd have to lean Justicar. The series of skills and passive allows for a lot of damage and control.

Overall advantage, then, would seem to go to the Justicar, in my opinion. They may not be able to land as many attacks, but when they do, they do a ton of damage which more than makes up for it. Their heavier armor and shields enables them to last long enough to dish out their attacks and combos.

Bottom Line:
I think, after all this, the sheer skill disharmony from War Mage is what really stands out. Only ice spells can land slow, and only particular ones can land that particular slow. Only fire spells can land the DoT, and there are only 2 viable ones and it's not a 100% chance. And the two sides, fire and ice, work against each other. If all ice spells landed the two slows (or better yet, combine both into one slow), and if the Fire DoT was 100%, that might help. If Icy Grasp enhanced the damage of the next spell regardless of whether it was fire or ice, that would help play into more synergy with Fire. Ice Shield is nice, but it means we have to get hit first, and any action from the opponent on us, whether damaging or not, removes it. Our biggest advantages that allow us to survive and win are Snap Cast, Deep Freeze, and Ice Shield... and all are low random chances... not things that can be selected and chosen when to use, like Heroic Will or Smoke Bomb. Perhaps if Ice Shield was a passive that lowered all incoming damage, or if Snap Cast was a 5 second Cooldown ability... But if Snap Cast never goes off in a fight, that was 1-3 points sitting there that did nothing.

Just things to think about, as you rebalance the classes. Whatever you do, try to make War Mages ice and fire sides work better together. I don't really want this to be like World of Warcraft, where a mage has to choose a particular tree like ice, fire or arcane, in order to be viable.

Oh, one last idea... allow the use of shields with staves. Only some light shields, though, or perhaps a new class of light shield. This would give mages enough of a damage boost to compete, without sacrificing much of their survivability. Or give staves some block chance and damage reduction. if the mage can channel offensive magic through them, they should be able to channel defensive magic, too.


Dude, your justicar "facts" are skewed once again... Stagger only procs on a block. 24% chance. Less than ice shield. And when have you ever seen a 2h justi block? Just words, and your spec still has not improved.
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Re: Official PvP Beta Feedback Thread

Postby Saint_Kai » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:19 am

DnT_TheTaken wrote:Dude, your justicar "facts" are skewed once again... Stagger only procs on a block. 24% chance. Less than ice shield. And when have you ever seen a 2h justi block? Just words, and your spec still has not improved.


You need reading comprehension. You pointed out nothing that I didn't already say. Of course Stagger only procs on a block. Block means you are getting hit, and that's exactly what I said: getting hit can proc a Stagger. Which is a 100% chance to happen on a block, if fully specced for it.

Just words from someone incredibly afraid they'll lose their IWIN button combo and have to pvp for real. I was actually doing pretty well in that fight, doing more damage to you than you were to me. But, as always happens, it can't be maintained, and you took that one opportunity to do the combo, triggering Heroic Will in the middle, and it was over from there. Honestly, try fighting without it sometime. I don't think you can. You seem honestly real threatened about honest discussion, that you take any opportunity to trash talk and demean someone. Can you try not acting like a jerk sometime? Most everyone here can seem to manage that.

For those curious, I was using all my spells in rotation, but this is the Sophie's choice that is eventually forced: Brutal Strike is coming. I have Time Void and Block available. If I block, that puts my block on cooldown and opens me up to Seismic Slash. If I manage to have enough time to Time Void Seismic Slash, he'll simply do it again. Enter combo. If I TV Brutal Strike, he simply does it again, forcing me to block. And then Seismic and then combo. Howler has the combo down well.

Hmm, perhaps if the Devs simply made Heroic Will unusable in PvP, that might help. They could still combo, but not to the extent that is possible with Heroic Will. Of course, Howler will howl about it, since he'll start losing most of his fights without it.

By the way, Howler is about 12.5k might, and I'm 15.5k might. One Combo is still all it takes to remove any chance of victory. And I do beat some Justicars, who don't make smart choices. But the ones who know what they are doing, can still easily win.
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Re: Official PvP Beta Feedback Thread

Postby Citlec » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:02 pm

How about making it so that time void gives you .5 sec cool down so you can't simply re-cast?
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Re: Official PvP Beta Feedback Thread

Postby Saint_Kai » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:44 pm

Good idea, Celtic. It has been something that has been proposed before. Time Void is fairly limited in usefulness in pvp, leaving the mage with only one interrupt. Ice Lance as a pushback is also fairly limited, leaving the mage fairly open to attack most of the time.

Perhaps they should also make it so a fire DoT doesn't break Icy Grasp's stun.
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Re: Official PvP Beta Feedback Thread

Postby Citlec » Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:27 pm

That might be excessive as then Venan would have to do it for everyone to stay logical.

But speaking of time void interaction, I don't think it should remove ice shield. I don't understand why any non-damage attack removing ice shield... if it's supposed to protect WM from attack, why does it go off when not taking any damage (ensnare, calltrop, time void...)
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Re: Official PvP Beta Feedback Thread

Postby Illy_the_Red » Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:43 am

What they probably won't do is take away other classes' abilities. If they address balance (I think they believe it needs tweaks at least) it will probably be to improve some WM abilities. Ice lance being the one that stands out most.

However, we have 2.0 coming, which likely means more abilities. Maybe there's a bigger plan in the pipeline involving these.

We also need a fix for the 'unknown reasons' bug, the 'black screen of death' bug and also the very flawed matching system.
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All Wet or Fire plus Ice equals a Confused Mess

Postby Bj_Knows » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:06 am

Subject
All Wet or Fire plus Ice equals a Confused Mess

Saint_Kai wrote:War Mage - In contrast to the others, their fire and ice sides do not work well together, forcing a mage to pick one. the DoT, which needs to be maintained in order to get a decent dps, break Icy Grasp. Icy Grasp is needed to be able to land a big spell once in awhile.
. . .
Ice Grasp lands, you have three choices: Incinerate for most damage and apply a burning (and thus give up the damage increase), or you can Frozen Shards/Ice Storm to apply the two slows (although you might be "wasting" Frozen Shards shorter cast time as a spell to use in regular combat). But if you want the biggest damage, Ice Lance 3 would benefit most from Icy Grasp's damage increase and it's longer cast time would benefit... but then you give up the 5 second pushback! No matter what you pick, the abilities work against each other, meaning you give something up.
. . .
War Mage is a series of trade offs, which I think might be the single biggest drawback compared to the other two.


MY PERSONAL OPINION
I hate when Ice Grasp triggers Snap Cast while Defend is still in cool down. Since v1.0, of all the classes, Mages seem to require the most knowledge from a starting player. I don't mind if Tier 4 Abilities require a lot of thought, but in many versions of BoH, Mage Tier 2 abilities require a lot of thought. I have often warned new players away from War Mage as their first class, which is a pity since Mages are often figures of Legend. Who doesn't want to be a Legend?

I am confident Venan will eventually get War Mage working, but some days, it can be very discouraging.
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Re: All Wet or Fire plus Ice equals a Confused Mess

Postby Possessed_Mithrid » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:47 pm

Bj_DWR wrote:
I am confident Venan will eventually get War Mage working, but some days, it can be very discouraging.


As more Justis and SW are actually learning how to play their class, intelligently, in PvP, it is getting only more and more discouraging...
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Re: Official PvP Beta Feedback Thread

Postby DoctorGrunt » Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:01 am

Add anti leechers filter.
Some people just launch the fight and don't play, it's really frustrating to wait every time out.
It should be 2 times out before the guy is kicked and he don't receive any rewards.
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Re: Official PvP Beta Feedback Thread

Postby Darkhorse » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:29 pm

DoctorGrunt wrote:Add anti leechers filter.
Some people just launch the fight and don't play, it's really frustrating to wait every time out.
It should be 2 times out before the guy is kicked and he don't receive any rewards.


We're implementing something for this in the next hotfix. You should be getting info on that soon.
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