June 23, 2012 - Raid Thoughts

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Re: June 23, 2012 - Raid Thoughts

Postby Jkungfu » Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:07 pm

Could raids work like boss fights in solo mode?

To enter the raid it cost scaled energy. Low lvl raids luke skar cost 6 higher end like vallus cost 10 etc... Then you fight through a number of mobs equal to half the cost. 3 for skar 5 for vallus etc...

The faster you clear the mobs the more you advance the raid and the more rpp you earn. No more advancing rpp bonus. Instead it's based on skill and strength.

There could still be phases and each phase could get a bit stronger with the final phase being the boss having to be taken down multiple times.

Probably take a lot of recoding and recalculating but those are my novice thoughts.
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Re: June 23, 2012 - Raid Thoughts

Postby TCG_Garrison64 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:30 pm

Being in a well coordinated top 10 guild I don't have any issues running Helion any more. The fist couple times we did that raid it seemed grueling but now we have it down to about 3 hours and it's no biggie. I pop in about 3 times to dump energy and check chat. I hang out longer if the discussion is interesting or I have something to say. The way this raid works it frees me up to do other things while the raid progresses. Just because the raid length is limited to 6 hours doesn't mean it has to take that long. I get that in a struggling guild it is a difficult raid and can run to the end of the clock. But that's just part of growth. Weed out the people that don't do much, recruit people that will, work on your gear and make sure you all work on getting the sigils because that extra energy makes a huge difference if you can't pump gold shields.

On the other hand our Zuur raids finish in 35 to 45 mins and you have to stay on top of them the whole time or risk losing RPP. The only way to get decent RPP out of that raid is the pump GS and get on top fast and stay there. That's definitely not ideal for the people trying to use that raid to prepare for Helion and beyond. Most of the lower people come away with 50 to 60 coins. Even being top 5 I'll barely get over 100. Not much payoff since it goes by so quickly.

I would love to see might make more of a difference to raiding. I was disappointed that it was basically meaningless other than being a requirement for getting into a specific raid. There isn't much incentive beyond that to upgrading gear except for those that just want full sets. If I'm willing to raid a lot and get a full set of nice gear and upgrade it with the best gems (which can take a tremendous amount of time if you don't use gs), then I should be rewarded in some way while raiding. The reward could vary from having my energy recoup faster, to getting more RPP, to allowing me to spend less energy to enter a certain fight. Not sure what the best solution is but it really should make some kind of difference.

Overall though I've really enjoyed the raiding aspect of the game. I didn't think I would initially but it has turned out to be great fun. I've met some nice people and we have a fun guild that works well together. Can't wait to see what you have in store for us.
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Re: June 23, 2012 - Raid Thoughts

Postby Hotasfire0Coolasice » Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:02 pm

I like those ideas (1 and 2) I'm not exactly sure what 3 meant other than a time limit. Raids have been around since I've started playing so no complaints I guess, considering another post is about fixing the DC loss of RPP.

Perhaps the battle speed can factor into RPP where you can get 10-110% of the normal RPP based on battle completion time?

No real ideas off me I guess, the raid mechanics are one of my more favored systems. I'm unclear, I heard you get 20% boost if your ranked #1 right?

Anyway, maybe there could be like a bonus boss as a last phase for every raid, with a time limit to complete ( doesn't affect the raid altogether) and takes XXXXXX damage to be defeated fully. Participators then gain a RPP bonus based on the % of the damage they dealt.
(To a max of XX%)
For example, Phase 3 of Plaquerider's raid, Vengeance of Skar, would have a stronger Skar with the boss hp and norm hp with the functions mentioned above. So let's say Vengeance has 70,000 HP total. If I dealt 7,000, I'd gain a 5% RPP boost.

Later on, my guild EX Ample raids lockbolt, but loses in Phase 4 (bonus) we only gain (100 - % of HP remaining) power that we'd have normally gotten, making it less of a gift and more of a challenge.
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Re: June 23, 2012 - Raid Thoughts

Postby Bbbb » Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:17 pm

Pfaff wrote:These Helion raids now fail at times because few people want to pop in and out over a six hour period.


I agree completely. We haven't failed yet but after the last overly long raid on Helion, nobody is very interested in trying it again for a while.
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Re: June 23, 2012 - Raid Thoughts

Postby JonCarey » Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:52 pm

One of the factors I see only briefly mentioned in this thread is the social nature of a raid. A raid brings the guild members together at the same time and encourages chatting and sharing. To me, this is what makes BoH so different than the many other games on my iPad. A downside of a 24-hour raid is that this coordinated interaction might be lost.

We were brainstorming that the game could use another activity that involves the guild coordinating efforts and interacting outside of raiding and without considerations for might, so that guilds with less intense players who are not driven to win Knight's Valor might have something engaging to do. It's an awful metaphor, but I'm thinking it could be like the quilting bees from a century ago. I don't have a good idea what this looks like yet, but I'm still mulling this over.

My reason for this strange quilting idea is that I see the game stratifying. There are 15 or so powerful and aggressive guilds. There are maybe 25 more guilds that are successfully active and growing. There appear to me to be at least 50 guilds that would be happy just to continue existing as a social unit - except that the focus of the game is raiding higher and higher bosses, and these guilds otherwise lack the interest in strengthening.

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Re: June 23, 2012 - Raid Thoughts

Postby Peter34_merc » Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:51 am

A few minutes ago, I had the thought that there should be two completely different kinds of guilds, orthogonal to each other, and with a player being able to be a member of one of each kind of guild.

One kind of guild is the current one, Raiding Guild, limited to X members (currently 60, but Venan might choose to change that), and the other is a Social Guild, which is simply an extra chat pane, where all members of that one Social Guild can chat with each other. Social Guilds are places to socialize and ask for and give advice, and so don't need any cap on the number of members. In fact they don't need any game mechanics at all.
--
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Re: June 23, 2012 - Raid Thoughts

Postby TreeHanger » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:33 am

Guild on guild combat ?
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Re: June 23, 2012 - Raid Thoughts

Postby Oda_edensdad » Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:53 am

Lord_Venan wrote:I think Little Mike may have hit on something here! Since 1.3 hit, we have gone from a handful of enthusiasts to an actual community and it is tremendously gratifying to read all the great thoughts, ideas and analysis people have for the game. Since we're a small company, I think it makes sense to use our 12th man to sound out some of the big features we're planning for the game. So let's give it a whirl!

We've seen a lot of feedback on raids - first off that people really like their existence, which is great. But also that the mechanics could use some work. We wholeheartedly agree. Honestly, I'm surprised they even work as well as they do, since our whole company can't do a raid by itself, and I can't find any games that did raids like this before, so we're treading new ground here. But we're constantly thinking about how we can make it better.

One thing we'll definitely improve is the boss fight. People have asked why they need to kill the boss 150 times to beat them. Well, the answer is - you aren't really meant to be killing them, just "wounding" them and their health bar represents how much damage is required to make a "wound". That was the design intent, but the presentation never really caught up. It's mostly because we used the existing combat engine that doesn't really allow for a persistent enemy between encounters. That is going to be fixed though, so hopefully those fights will feel more bossy.

Next, we're looking at a new encounter mechanic, basically to kill as much as you can in certain amount of time. Like impending doom, but you don't die in the end. This can play out a few different ways which I think would be cool.

1. Onslaught style encounters where you get multiple waves of enemies, and each group you clear progresses the raid, without having to pay the energy again.
2. Boss fights where you can "damage" the boss more than once. If you clear his health bar, you "wound" them, it re-fills, and you can do it again.
3. Roadblock style fights where you can fail to kill a tough enemy even once before the time runs out.

These encounter types will likely cost more energy, but allow players who have better/more powerful characters to be able to contribute more, as opposed to it strictly being an energy game. Energy will still be factor, but for a given amount of energy, this will allow a better/more powerful player to perform better during a raid.

The above are things we're pretty certain about doing. We have other ideas but some questions come up about how people want raids to go down.

One big one - do people like raids to be pop-in, burn energy, pop-out, or is there a desire to see a more coordinated action required during a raid? The more tactical we make them, the harder they will be to finish and the more coordination will be required of the guild. Which may be counter to how some people like to play the game.

This is just the tip of the iceberg really, but I think it's a good start. I'd like to see what kind of discussion we can kick up around these issues, so feel free to share your thoughts on the above.


You should make it where the stronger guys pay say like 10 energy and can go at the guys till they die. Kick them out during a different phase and make him pay 10 more to get in again... Just to keep one guy from stockin up on potions and beating the bosses by themselvs.. Also maby like a boost to players of same character type?
But dont make it more coodimated u make it to much people give up on guild
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Re: June 23, 2012 - Raid Thoughts

Postby Pur3Aw3zom3n3zz » Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:48 am

Peter34 wrote:A few minutes ago, I had the thought that there should be two completely different kinds of guilds, orthogonal to each other, and with a player being able to be a member of one of each kind of guild.

One kind of guild is the current one, Raiding Guild, limited to X members (currently 60, but Venan might choose to change that), and the other is a Social Guild, which is simply an extra chat pane, where all members of that one Social Guild can chat with each other. Social Guilds are places to socialize and ask for and give advice, and so don't need any cap on the number of members. In fact they don't need any game mechanics at all.

Great idea!
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Re: June 23, 2012 - Raid Thoughts

Postby Pur3Aw3zom3n3zz » Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:53 am

This is a little off topic, sorry about that. I saw a great idea about balancing onslaught, I forgot who originally posted it, but the idea went like this. Instead of trying to change the different classes, just change the amount of time each class gets per set of energy. That way Justicars can still stay slow and tank like, while Shadow Walkers can stay fast and ninja like, and War Mages can still be somewhere in the middle.

pvp: I think the only way this could be implemented without totally changing every class, and basically the whole game, would be to make the battles very long so it's not based on who gets the first attack. Although, even that would still have a problem, which is that the exact opposite things would be good to have in pvp vs other parts of the game. Meaning that with physical/magical resistance having a 90% hard cap, it becomes very important. Considering that with all damage stats, (haste, crit, crit power, magic, and melee), combined you get about 10X dps. With health gems, resist gems, and soft caped other things you could totally own pvp, which, now that I think about it, isn't a totally bad thing, so I guess this is sort of a suggestion for how to play pvp, and about it being a longer battle.

Raid bosses: My suggestion for making this more like a real boss, and also help better characters. Is to make it so you WILL die. Meaning that it will have the full health for the entire phase, and you will fight it until you die damaging it as much as possible, (no health potions aloud, but you get full health when you die). It may take some time to figure out how much health a boss will need to keep the raids around the same difficulty, but I think it'll be worth it.

Raids in general: difficulty needs to be much higher in raids, (I mean the mobs not how many kills you need to win), because right now the only important thing is to get your might up to the next raid difficulty. You don't have to bother getting your character better, because by the time you get to the might requirement you can easily win, (i'm talking exclusively about the harder raids, kraken and below can be semi difficult when you reach the might limit).

Trask is too easy: I THINK I speak for MOST, (I didn't say all so don't yell at me), people who have been done with quests for a while when I say that there needs to be something else to do inbetween raids. I know additions to the quest line will be added in future updates, but until then how about just some harder dungeons being unlocked with different might levels, (no quests needed just for more silver and fun, trask is too easy and repetitve).

Off topic again, I would really like to see some sort of survival area whether you impliment it into the raid bosses or not. This type of survival would be different, with rounds of mobs a certain level higher than you, getting harder and harder as it goes. Then when you lose you can get a bonus based on how much damage you do to a final boss that can't die. The no health potions would only apply in the final boss of this kind of survival stage. It just gets hard, harder, harder than you ever would've imagined fighting in this kind of game, and impossible over time.
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