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Min Gems or Geometric Diminishing Returns (R=Exp+)

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:20 pm
by Bj_Knows
Min Gems or Multiple Geometric Diminishing Return Curves and their impact on Might (R=Exp+)

Rating: Expert and up

Bj_Knows wrote:Except for PM Raid, you should be able to play BoH with (Edit: 18) Enchants at Rank 3 and only 12 Augment Gems (Note 1).

When Tier 20 Gear and Tier 8 Gems are released, I may attempt this.

Note 1)
Bj_Knows wrote:
Rating: Expert and up

Eventually you will open all your Chest Armor, Helm and Leg Armor Gem Slots. Giving you 36% of your base Augment Gem Stat Bonus (1 Pieces of Gear * 4 Location Bonus, 2 Pieces of Gear * 3 Location Bonus / 28 Total Location Bonus) using just these twelve Gems. Once you earn Amulet and Ring, and open their Gem Slots, it will give 43% of your base Augment Gem Stat Bonus (3 Pieces of Gear * 4 Location Bonus / 28 Total Location Bonus) using the same twelve starting Gems.

Tier, GS, Bonus, GS per +1
3, 12, +6, 2
3, 9, +6, 1.5

4, 36, +8, 4.5
4, 27, +8, 3.375

5, 80, +10, 8
5, 60, +10, 6

6, 120, +12, 10
6, 90, +12, 7.5

With a new character, and minimum Augment Gems and Gear, you could save:

3,402 GS on Tier 6/ Tier 11 Gear and Tier 6 Gems from Majerio.

4,182 Tier 14 Captian Valor on Tier 14 Gear.

105,440 Tier 18 Guardian Valor on Tier 18 Gear and Tier 7 Gems.

2,108,800 Guardian Valor upconvertered to Tier 20 Valor on Tier 20 Gear and Tier 8 Gems.

Plus Enchants rank 3 are inexpensive for Arcane Transfers.

Min Gem Mark I:

4 Gems, 2 Enchants*
Weapon (for J & WM)
Ring (for SW)

0 Gems, 2 Enchants*
Weapon (for SW)

Tier 1 Legacy (no Gem Slots), 2 Enchants*
Ring (for J & WM, skips Impure Shadows)

*Rank 3 Enchants

9 items* Rank 3* 2 Enchant Slots* 0.5% Might Increase= +27% Base Might due to Enchants.

1.27 of 1.81 Maximum Enchant Might.

6 Haste Tier 6 or Tier 7
3 Magic Tier 6 (Melee for Justicar)

3 Crit Power Tier 6
2 Magic Resist Tier 6/ 1 Phys Resist Tier 6

3 Items* 4 Location Modifier / 28 Total Location Modifier= 42.8% Max Gem Might

Full Tomes (Even HT Spending for PvP)

100% Tome Might.

Works with any class, but best class is War Mage. Cloth Boots/ Gauntlets/ Cloak least lost armor. One PvE Weapon, Staff, that also works well in PvP. Dodge Rating is too useful for SW. Crit Rating is too useful for 2h Axe Justicar.

12 GS
39 GS
1,195 Tier 14 Captain Valor
2,130 Tier 18 Guardian Valor

12 GS
39 GS
1,195 Tier 14 Captain Valor
2,130 Tier 18 Guardian Valor

18 GS
58 GS
1,792 Tier 14 Captain Valor
3,180 Tier 18 Guardian Valor

Boots Def Tier 18= 504 Defense
Chest Def Tier 18= 1,259 Defense

28* Gem
120 GS= 3,360 GS
3,500 Tier 7 Guardian Valor= 98,000 Tier 7 Guardian Valor

12+ 12+ 18+ 3,360= 3,402 GS
1,195+ 1,195+ 1,792= 4,182 Tier 14 Captian Valor
2,130+ 2,130+ 3,180+ 98,000= 105,440 Tier 18 Guardian Valor
105,440* 20 Upconvert= 2,108,800 Guardian Valor upconvertered to Tier 20 Valor

The problem this is examining is multiple geometric diminishing returns curves and selling Gear/ Gems for non-GS currency.

Many of the diminishing returns are multiplied, Boots have 50% Location Bonus of Chest, Boots have 40% Defense of Chest, Tier 7 Gems are only +17% Bonus of Tier 6 Gems, Enchants Rank 3 require 0.9% the Materials of Rank 9. Tomes take up zero inventory for each Build. Tomes can be maximum for all abilities. All Level Based Stat Curves give a huge advantage to Full Tomes, especially in PvP.

Lots of very low Might characters are finishing Caliban, then are shocked to find they need a 36k Might Raid for Impure Shadows. So PvE is very low Might if you allocate Gems and Tomes right. Raiding with your Guild is very low Might except for PM Raid.

Also, if maximum Might characters is not something that makes you happy (Hi Cia). Less characters buying 40 Tier 7 Gems would have a huge impact on how Venan allocates its development cycles each December.

Since NikoNarf_1 has not been updating the Raid Topic, I don't know how bad it has gotten, in Hours per Tier 7 Gem, but it is 180 GS per Tier 7 Gem ($12- 15 USD). Last time I checked Tier 6 Gems were 700+ CELR or 120 GS ($8- 10 USD). Even if you could resell Gear for Valor, it would take 20 Tier 6 Gems (+12 Bonus) to buy 1 Tier 7 Gem (+14 Bonus). But it only takes the GS from 1.5 Tier 6 Gems to buy 1 Tier 7 Gem.

Full Tomes give a huge advantage in PvP, so Full Tomes are desirable.

Weapon (no Gems, 2 Enchant rank 3), Helm (no Gems, 2 Enchant rank 3), Chest (4 Gems, 2 Enchant rank 3), Legs (no Gems, 2 Enchant rank 3), Amulet (4 Gems, 2 Enchant rank 3) and Ring (4 Gems, 2 Enchant rank 3) give huge advantages. But Boots, Gauntlet, Cloak and the remaining 28 Gems contribute less than 50% of your Might, and an even small part of your combat effectiveness. This is especially true given how much of an impact Full Tomes, and Enchants rank 3, have on moving the diminishing Stat Curves.

Too many of the diminishing return curves are geometric, and multiply with each other (Location Bonus, Gem Tier Bonus, Enchant Might).

By eliminating the need to upgrade Boots, Gauntlet, Cloak and 28 Gems from a Build, you can Raid, and PvP, less, but still be competitive. If you want two Builds, PvP/ Raiding and Saving silver coin, you only need 6 Blue Gems (Crit Power, Resist), and 1- 3 Yellow Gems (Haste, Dodge), in inventory

You would have a slight disadvantage in Onslaught Raids, but you can make up for it by being more social in Guild Chat. Since there is no Onslaught Farming (Essence, Shards, Ichor, etc.), the leaner build should still be good at that.

Once you max out your lean character, you can then switch to casual Raiding, or try out the other two classes, and any extra Guardian Valor you get, upconvert to Tier 20 Gear Valor.

A leaner character is trying to address the grind problem of BoH. But this might just be a problem current RPG games cannot solve (Note B)

Note A)
Hunted in the Mist- 1,322 CELR
Merc, Bronze Finish, Metric= 789.56 CELR per Tier 6 Gem

Note B)
There's much to "do" in Inquisition, but how much of it is meaningful? Sorry to point fingers, but how much are we to blame? Given how we talk about games, how much weight we put on length being a determination of quality, aren't we encouraging this behavior? We expect an RPG to be dozens, if not hundreds, of hours long, but are the hours well-spent? If BioWare announced the next Mass Effect would be only be 20 hours long, people would riot. But if it meant 20 hours of consequential character development, I'll happily sacrifice the extra time.3

Hey, games are expensive. $60 is nothing to sniff at. We use time as a measuring stick because burning $60 isn't an option for most of us. I'd argue wasting two days of our lives isn't great, but I see where people are coming from. A long story doesn't have to be bad, but length isn't objectively good, either. Games like Inquisition need to find a better balance between the two.


Lean WM Cassidy

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:17 pm
by Bj_DWR
Lean WM Cassidy

Lean War Mage Cassidy is doing well.

Cassidy rapidly went from Level 4 to 10 (78 minutes, no Energy Potions or GS for Energy). Due to 22, 26, 28, 30 & 32 Energy Bars (+10, +4, +2, +2, +2 Sigils) which are refilled every time she bought a new Sigil or gained a Level; Prorated XP during Raids; GG, Skar, Lockbolt, & Squire Sigil Quests. Actually wasted some Energy because she could not spend it fast enough.

At Level 16, without any more Hero Tokens, she can get into War of Fellmarsh. Without any more Hero Tokens, but 18 Enchants at Rank 3 (1.27 Base Might), she can get into Horde of the Goblin King.

L16 Lean WM Cassidy

PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:29 pm
by Bj_Knows
Level 16 Lean WM Cassidy

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2- Incinerate
2- Frozen Shard
0- Flaming Pyre
0- Inner Focus
3- Icy Grasp

0- Ice Storm
1- Fiery Lash
3- Staff Mastery
1- Fire Blast
0- Ice Lance

0- Fire Mastery
1- Ice Master
0- Magma Jet
0- Shattering Force
2- Ice Spike Armor

1- Snap Cast
0- Time Void
0- Elemental Fracture
0- Ignite
0- Arcane Shield

Standard Rotation
Frozen Shard rank 2, 0.52s
Fiery Lash rank 1, 0.56s (1.08 total)
Icy Grasp rank 3, 0.2s (1.28 total, 0.2 since Burn Stack)
*Incinerate rank 2, 0.75s (2.03 total, 0.95 since Burn Stack)
Snap Cast rank 1
Frozen Shard or Fiery Lash depending on PvP Bout.

Fire Blast rank 1 (0.37s) and Defend (0.5s) as needed.

*You can replace this with Frozen Shard, Fire Blast or Fiery Lash if your character is Slowed (Caltrop or Frozen Shard). But the Burn Stack lacks a Damage Tick number, so guesstimating the correct attack can be difficult. All three replacements have pros and cons.

Cassidy had to remove one of her Tier 3 Haste Gems at Level 16. With it, her rotation was 1.99, but Snap Cast has a 2.00 initial cool down. Without it, her rotation is 2.03. Replaced it with a Tier 6 Dodge Gem giving her Dodge 31%. May increase Haste when gets Time Void rank 3.

Tier 13 Helm
Tier 11 2h Staff, Armor, Cloak, Amulet, & Ring

Level 16
Magic Rating 1936, +500 Magic Damage (* 1.3 Speed Staff)
Crit Rating 8, 5.74%
Crit Power Rating 536, 176.48%
Defense Rating 1358, 33.32%
Phys Resist Rating 96, 2.4%
Magic Resist Rating 184, 4.41%
Dodge Rating 704, 31.85%
Haste Rating 2224, 34.49%

3* Tier 6 Haste Gems
1* Tier 6 Dodge Gem (replaces one Tier 3 Haste Gem in PvP Build)
3* Tier 3 Haste Gem

3* Tier 6 Magic Gems

2* Tier 3 Crit Power Gem (one from Beginner’s Offer)
1* Tier 1 Magic Resist Gem (from Prestige Beginner’s Bundle at Majerio’s)

Overall Wins 108
Longest Win Streak 21
Highest Rating 602

Wins vs Justicars 27
Wins vs Shadow Walkers 45
Wins vs War Mages 36
Total Fights 138

Posted in PvP Chat

Lvl 16, Might 5k, WM Cassidy is Farming PvP for Enchant Recipes. Once Cassidy gets to Level 28, she will stop confusing the PvP matching.

She gets to Silver, then fights a Level 25 & gets knocked back. Annoying the Bronze & confusing the PvP Matching.

Re: L18 Lean WM Cassidy

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:08 am
by Bj_Knows
Bj_Knows wrote:Level 16 Lean WM Cassidy

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Level 18 Lean WM Cassidy is PvP Matching with more Justicars, so switched to:

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57 min of Indigo Portal

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:22 pm
by Bj_Knows
Lean characters are less grindy than regular characters. But even trying to minimize the grind, you cannot make BoH all fun, all the time (though the lower level art is aweSPOON, like the Rath'een Titan or Digger). Case in point, Essence before the Vile Realm is opened.

Enchants rank 3 have 33% the effectiveness of rank 9 for 0.9% of the Materials. But until the Vile Realms, Enchant Materials are mostly found in Incursion Portals, with the best Essence Drops at Max level.

Level 19 lean WM Cassidy stumbled upon a starting Indigo Portal and burned through all the 12e pots the game had so far given her, plus some she bought, for 7 GS each, from the Black Market. She fought for 57 minutes straight and now possesses Essence 1066, Refined Essence 10, Amber Flux 10, Emeral Flux 12 & Indigo Flux 17 (Materials before the 57 minute grind are unknown).

I possess a very sore hand.

PvP Marks, Gear & League Curves

PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:13 pm
by Bj_Knows
PvP Marks, Gear & League Curves

When PvP Season 1 started, few characters had 9/9 Coliseum Gear Sets, so certain characters had a Rating of Y. Ex: a character with full T10 PvA Gear & T3 Gems had a Rating of Y.

But as people completed Coliseum Sets, the same character would fall to a lower Rating of Y- X. Favoring the early adopters. But this means players joining BoH now are Rated Y-X when the they get to T10 PvA Gear & T3 Gems. The lower Rating pays less Marks per Bout, taking them longer to complete their Set since Venan did not add a League between Platinum & Masters (or were unable to based on population spread).

When Venan added T18 Sets, characters Rating dropped again to Y-X-Z for characters with full T10 PvA Gear & T3 Gems. Earning even less per Bout since Venan did not add a League between Platinum & Masters (or were unable to based on population spread).

But the cost for a T18 Set is higher than for a T16 Set, & PvP Gear is sold back to Lady Gwynn for silver coin, not Marks.

So you have a recursion where new players in T10 PvA Gear & T3 Gems earn less & less Marks per Bout, while Max Tier PvP Gear costs more & more Marks.

This math would seem to indicate an impossible, ever increasing, grind for a Lean WM like Cassidy. After she gets her Marks for her Recipes, she may call off PvPing. Until then she is cutting back to 4 Bouts per day.

While PvA Gear is more grindy at higher Valor, at least the lower Valor does not become *more* grindy each time new Valor is introduced.

Note: The refactoring of Resolve only had an impact on Legacy characters.

This would seem to be verified by CJ being stuck in Silver (Gold at start of Season 1), BarbSpice being stuck in Silver, & Cassidy being stuck in Bronze.

Re: Min Gems or Geometric Diminishing Returns (R=Exp+)

PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:36 pm
by EricM
I agree BJ. The recursive nature of it is only hurting the lower players as those at the top really don't need the marks but continue to earn plenty while those in the bottom need it but barely earn enough to grab a few pieces of gear before they're phased out unless they're pvping a significant amount. Also leads into the whole issue of unopposed damage. By increasing damage dealt via pvp gear sets, rather than providing an advantage in pvp, it provides the opposite once the opposition all gains pvp gear sets as well. With an increase in pure damage without a corresponding increase in defense, all pvp gear serves to do is increase the luck factor of pvp matches.

Or to speak in bj language... :lol: :lol: :lol:

When players all do X cumulative amount of damage with Y amount of defense mitigation (from 0 to 1) and Z amount of health, it roughly takes Z/(1-Y) damage to kill that player. When X is increased by 20% with a full gear set, it now takes 0.83Z/(1-Y) damage to kill that player. As single hit damage (X') increases towards Z, matches skew towards classes with the largest damage output in early rounds... aka the class that can land the first stun is placed at an enormous advantage as damage increases unopposed... whether that be WMs with the quickest cast time stun or justis with jugg and then stun.

Man... bj... idk how you do this. It's hard writing confusing posts :p

Cassidy's Lucky Cloak

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:58 pm
by Bj_Knows
Cassidy's Lucky Cloak

Bj_Knows wrote:This math would seem to indicate an impossible, ever increasing, grind for a Lean WM like Cassidy. After she gets her Marks for her Recipes, she may call off PvPing. Until then she is cutting back to 4 Bouts per day.

While PvA Gear is more grindy at higher Valor, at least the lower Valor does not become *more* grindy each time new Valor is introduced.

Because Lean WM Cassidy will not be Enchanting a Coliseum Gear Set, and the ROI on Luck Enchant is low (Note 1), Lean WM Cassidy will not be increasing her Luck Rank 1 Enchant from the Quest Chain. However, she will not be *disenchanting it*. She has a spare Cloak she will keep it on.

Note 1)
Bj_Knows wrote:3 Items with Luck rank 1
Enchanting Cost is 300 Essence
Luck is 0.015
ROI= 0.0 from Essence Farming (ignoring other benefits) is 20,000 Essence or 2,000 Refined or 200 Pure or [ 36 Enchants= 14.8 Enchants to rank 3 + 21.1 Enchants to rank 2 ]
or [ 18 Enchants= 4.7 Enchants to Rank 4 + 13.3 Enchants to Rank 3 ].

Cassidy's Soldier & Knight Sigil

PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:50 pm
by Bj_Knows
Cassidy’s Soldier & Knight Sigil

Event Quest Hero Cooperation was an excellent time for Lean WM Cassidy to earn her Soldier Sigil and Knight Sigil.

Current version of Crypt of Corruption is hard, so I swapped out her usually Lean Build for a Build with every high Level piece of Gear and Gem she had. I bought a second multipurpose Build for Crypt’s Boss. I decided to spend some of her Marks, Flux, Essence and Gold Shields to get 2H Damage 8%.

She tried some Public Raids. They usually got Gold, but she had a hard time spending her Energy with all the high Levels in the Public Raids.

After earning her Soldier Sigil, I bought Elixirs of Speed/ Protection/ Vitality/ Fortune (On Sale even) and started looking for a Vallus Raid (CK & WoF are locked).

She Merced a Vallus Raid [ 1/24/15 2:02:33 PM GMT by mike (Darwin) ] with Crazy Village (Thanks guys & gals). Used her new Soldier Sigil for a free refill, completed the Event Quest, spent the 1k HT & 24 Energy Potion, used the rest of her Energy Potions and Leveled in Raid for a total RPP of 19,530.

Vallus was hard, so her tactics were to prevent him from getting an action. War Mages have Chill, an Interrupt and a Stun. Vallus never lasted 2 sec, so Snap Cast was always in initial cool down (I will remove it, if I ever run Vallus again).

After cashing in the Reward Email, her current Knight Valor balance is enough to get the Knight Sigil.

My hands are very sore.

Portals, Gems & Helm

PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:32 am
by Bj_Knows
Bj_Knows wrote:After cashing in the Reward Email, her current Knight Valor balance is enough to get the Knight Sigil.

My hands are very sore.

Now that Lean WM Cassidy has 42 Energy Bar, she is living in Portals. I keep doing Indigo by habit, but I need to hit some Amber for 2H Damage and Initiative.

Cassidy has a *huge* advantage over Shadow Walkers and Justicars. Unlike a Melee Justicar/ Shadow Walker switching to a Magic Justicar/ Shadow Walker or a Melee & Magic Justicar/ Shadow Walker, she can keep her Gems (all Tier 6 Magic, no Melee) and reset her Ability Set to switch from Fire Mage to Ice Mage to Fire & Ice Mage to Ice & Fire Mage (used to be 5 GS, now free).

This is never so apparent as when running Vallus Raid, Crypt Raid, and Portals. Being able to swap in less than 30 seconds is aweSPOON!

I prefer Ice & Fire, but currently running Heavy Fire & Light Ice since it gives Cassidy an advantage vs Invasion Viles.

In Vallus Raid and Crypt Raid, she can use different Ability Sets by buying a second Build. She used Fire Mob & Fire Boss for Vallus, then Fire & Ice Mob and Fracture Boss for Crypt. Still using the same Tier 6 Magic Gems (huge savings on Inventory and currency spent on Gems).

Venan even announced that all Basic Attacks for War Mage are becoming Magic Attacks (Note 1). Except for Might boost to get into Raids, no reason to invest in Melee Tome, saving Cassidy the Hero Tokens needed to max out her Melee Tome.

Note 1)

CheMClarc wrote:Considering this is hella confusing and no real benefit to the War Mage using a one handed weapon. We have changed the one handed weapon attack action type to Spell Attack. War Mages that use a one handed weapon will now have their standard melee attack be a "Spell attack" which will be modified by their magic attribute. This will especially help when a War Mage is out of abilities and forced to use a regular attack in PvP. Please note that this ability will not change until our next update and will be in our patch notes.