reasons for the raid changes

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Re: reasons for the raid changes-OFFICIAL RESPONSE 14 day St

Postby Fizz_JohnJSal » Fri May 10, 2013 11:07 am

Mike, thank you very much for the reply (and for making the thread a sticky for now). I understand what you said in your response, but it still seems rather strange to me that you went from an effective 60 person cap (pre 1.6) all the way down to 30, in order to combat an infinite supply of mercs. Why not simply cap all the raids at 60, as before, so that nothing really needed to change?

And of course, capping the raids AND making them so much longer was just really icing on the cake to many people. Clearly Venan has already admitted that they've messed up the numbers, so I won't beat it to death at this point, but it's still shocking that anyone thought these new numbers made sense. I'm guessing they were never actually tested.

Now, if the point of all this really was to make Gold a lot harder to achieve and to make Silver the new standard, well, mission accomplished on the first part (but Silver is still difficult), but I don't quite believe Venan's claim that you can get Gold without purchasing "a single gold shield." I also agree with a comment made in another thread that said that Gold will always be seen as "success," and anything else will not. No one is going to be happy settling for Silver all the time.

And honestly, I don't think the point about this being a casual, mobile game can be overstated. It's supposed to be FUN, not WORK, and it's just not fun anymore.
Last edited by Fizz_JohnJSal on Fri May 10, 2013 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: reasons for the raid changes-OFFICIAL RESPONSE 14 day St

Postby EricM » Fri May 10, 2013 11:13 am

It took us a while, but steady recruiting, and a constant stream of active players helped create our guild to the point where we'd have 45+ members in our raids back in 1.6.

Honestly, it feels like we're being penalized now because we're over-active. I'm half thinking I wouldn't have minded the pre-patch 1.6 raid waves, provided there was no cap.
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Re: reasons for the raid changes-OFFICIAL RESPONSE 14 day St

Postby NikoNarf_1 » Fri May 10, 2013 12:01 pm

Fspoo_NikoNarf wrote:It has been acknowledged that raid caps prevent casual players from dumping energy in raids, as these players would be taking up valuable raid places in a capped raid. (The old "limit" of 60 was high enough that these players didn't jeopardize raids) On the other hand, capped raids create more of a challenge to the dedicated player, many of whom were lamenting the lack of challenge in the game.

The solution (all right, one possible solution...)

At the time a raid is started, the raid can be set with a tight cap (cap value as it is now), a moderate cap (cap value * 1.5), or a loose cap (cap value * 2, or no cap at all). Raid lengths remain the same in any mode, however:
Raids completed at the moderate cap level can at best achieve silver rewards.
Raids completed at the loose cap level can only achieve bronze rewards.

Under this system, guilds can define themselves as guilds for dedicated players or guilds for casual players, or in some cases, 100-member guild caps could allow both to coexist...Ideal! As an example, a guild could start a tight-capped VG at a standard time, those dedicated players who arrive on time get in and go for gold. 30 minutes later, the same guild could start a moderately-capped or loosely-capped GK raid for the players who arrive late. When the dedicated players finish the VG raid, they can assist with the casual GK if they wish.

Why can't guilds do this now, you ask? If the most dedicated players fill the first VG raid, and casual players fill a tight-capped GK raid, the GK raid would be unlikely to finish. The casual player would still feel bad entering the GK raid as that place in the raid would still be at a premium. Loose caps allow casual players to enter raids without feeling like they are a drag on their guild.

Closing argument:

One of the strengths of Book of Heroes was that it had appeal to a wide variety of players and player styles. The current raid cap system narrows this scope. The above implementation should bring back the flexibility required to let this game appeal to a wider audience once again.


Darkhorse wrote:This is actually something we've already been considering, as is a sliding cap that can be chosen by guild officers that will change the reward output.

IF this is the route we decide to take, I will provide more information early next week.


I'm copying this to the stickied thread so it doesn't get lost.
This would solve my issues with raid caps.
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Re: reasons for the raid changes-OFFICIAL RESPONSE 14 day St

Postby Click » Fri May 10, 2013 12:18 pm

I'll go ahead and repost what I wrote in another thread.

"They said that in 1.5 that Gold was basically expected and failure to meet Gold was seen as a failed raid so they now require more active participation for Gold.

While that's true, Gold will always be seen as success and all else will always be seen as failure. Silver is 80% of the rewards of Gold. And Bronze is hardly worth the energy. The second the clock ticks past the Gold time limit, every single hit you do and have done is going to give you 20% less. That's a big difference and hugely discouraging.

Gold will always be the standard expectation. No one wants to stick around in a "Silver guild" and progress at 80% of the rate of everyone else."

Go ahead and make so Gold that difficult. All it's going to do is kill any guild that can't achieve Gold consistently. No one is going to be content with Silver when Gold exists. Sure, don't make it easy, but just because we were always hitting Gold doesn't mean it was easy. It took a lot of time and effort and recruitment to get there. Gold was never a guarantee and still isn't a guarantee.

Guild Leader: Alright guys, let's get silver!
Raid member 1: Wooo yeaaahh!!
Raid member 2: Let's do this!


See how dumb that scenario looks? No one is going to get excited about a raid knowing it's going to be silver no matter what just because they don't have the GS to burn.

As far as raid caps go, just make them all the same. It's a nightmare to plan raids with different caps. Low cap raids force people to sit, but those people who sit are needed for other raids with higher caps. It doesn't make any sense. If you're going to keep different raid sizes then it's not fair for everyone to share the same raid cool down because 20 people took a whole cooldown for themselves and 20 others don't get a chance to do anything that whole time.
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Re: reasons for the raid changes-OFFICIAL RESPONSE 14 day St

Postby Possessed_Mithrid » Fri May 10, 2013 1:19 pm

I am going to get a lot of flak for this I am certain..


AoW_McLovin wrote:I'll go ahead and repost what I wrote in another thread.

"They said that in 1.5 that Gold was basically expected and failure to meet Gold was seen as a failed raid so they now require more active participation for Gold.

....
Gold will always be the standard expectation. No one wants to stick around in a "Silver guild" and progress at 80% of the rate of everyone else."
..


Then how do you make a distinction between exceptional efforts (granted it can occur either by burning or by excellent guild organization) and casual raiding?

Frankly, I think Venas approach that Gold is worthy of distiction and not something to be given out easily is fine.
I think McLovin's position, and I recognize its common among many players, is based on the fact that everyone wants to believe mediocrity is special...but it isn't. If everyone achieves gold with moderate to great effort...then whats the point, things become boring.

AoW_McLovin wrote:Go ahead and make so Gold that difficult. All it's going to do is kill any guild that can't achieve Gold consistently. No one is going to be content with Silver when Gold exists.


I disagree, there are many many mid tier guilds filled with casual raiders who would be content to typically hit silver and bronze; and occasionally hit gold, in which event it would be a celebration. The only players and guilds not content to get silver/bronze will tend to be the hardcore gamers. Most of them will congregate to the higher tier guilds anyway...ok so is that a problem...should Venan recognize casual players in the same league as hardcore gamers?

Note I am not saying one is better than the other, but causal gamers recognize that they wont make all the leaderboards/top ranks, and frankly, they generally don't give 2 $#!TS about leaderboards, just like hardcore gamers want some recognition for their efforts...Venan needs to be able to find a middle ground where all players can be happy and still enjoy a challenge...but not hand everyone out a 1st place ribbon for trying. This is similar to my gripe about awarding every child that participates in a competition a trophy...seriously?!? We need to get over that.

Silver being the norm is not a bad idea. Gold being rare and requiring either exceptional guild organization or a lot of burning...I can live with that. (Remember the people who burn are subsidizing the game play for the people not burning).

Also as far as guild management goes...yeah, in order for large guilds to take advantage of all 100 players by running multiple raids, organizing toons, rising up the leaderboards and running a well oiled machine...its a hell of a lot of work. However there are GM's and Officers in many guilds who are up to the task...this really gives good GM's the ability to show their talent at guild management...and it will also cause less than stellar guilds to either fall into the ranks of mediocrity or disappear all together...but that isn't bad. Many guilds will recognize they are casual players and accept it graciously. (If I was a GM that would be me...I don't have the time, or motivation, to commit myself to running a great guild)

I think people need to accept that Silver is a good norm...and that top guilds will burn or well manage for gold..and that is not bad and actually will give the game a much broader variety.

-Mith

PS: McLovin...I'm not picking on you personally here...your post was well written and I quoted it as it merely conveyed well the feelings of many players currently.
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Re: reasons for the raid changes-OFFICIAL RESPONSE 14 day St

Postby Fizz_JohnJSal » Fri May 10, 2013 2:21 pm

Mithrid wrote:Venan needs to be able to find a middle ground where all players can be happy and still enjoy a challenge.


Maybe, maybe not. I am a casual player and don't care one bit about the leaderboards. However, it's already hard enough to earn all the valor you need to get a full set of gear (and then gems after that!), and to make it even harder to get Gold (and therefore get less valor per raid) is very disheartening. Even playing casually with the goal of getting valor to get gear (to then move on to get more valor and more gear), the prospect of no longer getting Gold very often isn't any fun.
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Re: reasons for the raid changes-OFFICIAL RESPONSE 14 day St

Postby japster » Fri May 10, 2013 2:31 pm

JohnJSal wrote:
Mithrid wrote:Venan needs to be able to find a middle ground where all players can be happy and still enjoy a challenge.


Maybe, maybe not. I am a casual player and don't care one bit about the leaderboards. However, it's already hard enough to earn all the valor you need to get a full set of gear (and then gems after that!), and to make it even harder to get Gold (and therefore get less valor per raid) is very disheartening. Even playing casually with the goal of getting valor to get gear (to then move on to get more valor and more gear), the prospect of no longer getting Gold very often isn't any fun.


Playing devil's advocate...if you're casual, why do you expect the same amount of payout as a hardcore gamer from a raid? Doesn't make sense to invest less time than a hardcore gamer, but still get same payout as him.

Why not think of gold timing as a privilege and silver as the standard?
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Re: reasons for the raid changes-OFFICIAL RESPONSE 14 day St

Postby Possessed_Mithrid » Fri May 10, 2013 2:32 pm

JohnJSal wrote:Maybe, maybe not. I am a casual player and don't care one bit about the leaderboards. However, it's already hard enough to earn all the valor you need to get a full set of gear (and then gems after that!), and to make it even harder to get Gold (and therefore get less valor per raid) is very disheartening. Even playing casually with the goal of getting valor to get gear (to then move on to get more valor and more gear), the prospect of no longer getting Gold very often isn't any fun.


I can respect that John, however the numbers are indicating that with Guild Loyalty maxed...Silver rewards now are equivalent to 1.5 Gold (possibly even better..I still need to fine tune my estimates)..in which case your difficulty level of earning gear/gems hasn't changed if a good casual guild hits silver every time, in fact it got a tad easier. Personally I think Venan did it on purpose. The new Gold is actually a bonus over anything available in 1.5..so why not make it harder to achieve.

Also, Venan dramatically reduced the enchant grind by dropping essence in VG...so overall the game has gotten easier from the perspective of effort needed to earn/enchant gear.
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Re: reasons for the raid changes-OFFICIAL RESPONSE 14 day St

Postby Marconious » Fri May 10, 2013 2:43 pm

I'd be curious to know the stats of how many players had to used epots or shields In order to make gold before. Because in every raid that I was in that made gold....someone was burning shields to make it happen. That why you were seeing such a high success rate for GK. The CV level players are more dedicated and willing to spend to make gold. Why would you see that as a bad thing?! The fact that guilds worked hard and recruited and pushed for gold should not have been an ""uncomfortable" issue for you Venan! I'm not sure I have much more to say on this. Unless things change Im not interested in playing the game anymore. My gf was trying to make me play this game less anyway so she is at least thankful this update happened.
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Re: reasons for the raid changes-OFFICIAL RESPONSE 14 day St

Postby Click » Fri May 10, 2013 4:01 pm

Mithrid wrote:Then how do you make a distinction between exceptional efforts (granted it can occur either by burning or by excellent guild organization) and casual raiding?

Frankly, I think Venas approach that Gold is worthy of distiction and not something to be given out easily is fine.
I think McLovin's position, and I recognize its common among many players, is based on the fact that everyone wants to believe mediocrity is special...but it isn't. If everyone achieves gold with moderate to great effort...then whats the point, things become boring.


Well it's not that Gold needs to be easy. But having 30 people lined up to enter the exact second the raid opens up and drop every single point of energy from that point on and only have a few minutes left to spare for Gold is a bit much. I also do not agree that we should just open up all raids with no limits and pile in 100 people at a time and be done with the entire raid in 2 energy regen cycles. I think if your raid fills up moderately quickly and people return at least a couple times to spend their energy, there should be a good shot at Gold. I see no reason for Gold to only belong to guilds that have exact raid schedules and take attendance and what not. That kind of group is rewarding in itself because they have a consistent group of raiders and don't even need to panic or call in merc or micro manage raids once everyone shows up.

Mithrid wrote:I disagree, there are many many mid tier guilds filled with casual raiders who would be content to typically hit silver and bronze; and occasionally hit gold, in which event it would be a celebration. The only players and guilds not content to get silver/bronze will tend to be the hardcore gamers. Most of them will congregate to the higher tier guilds anyway...ok so is that a problem...should Venan recognize casual players in the same league as hardcore gamers?

Note I am not saying one is better than the other, but causal gamers recognize that they wont make all the leaderboards/top ranks, and frankly, they generally don't give 2 $#!TS about leaderboards, just like hardcore gamers want some recognition for their efforts...Venan needs to be able to find a middle ground where all players can be happy and still enjoy a challenge...but not hand everyone out a 1st place ribbon for trying. This is similar to my gripe about awarding every child that participates in a competition a trophy...seriously?!? We need to get over that.


And it's not true at all that people will be content with getting Silver over and over. The occasional Silver here and there because it's during off hours or people just don't show up and sometimes even Bronze for a botched raid or having too much reliance on mercs... I think that people will probably be fine with. But Silver as the norm is demoralizing and it doesn't keep people playing for very long when they feel they are helpless and are only receiving partial rewards for their efforts compared to other groups.

Casual players already never even get seen on the leaderboards and progress slowly because they are the type to sometimes not return mid raid. They play less, they get rewarded less, they progress slower. The distinction between hardcore groups (and I use that word lightly because being "hardcore" in this game basically just means turning on your phone app a dozen times a day) and non-hardcore groups has always been there and doesn't need to be pushed even more at the expense of players who just like to drop in once in a while. Sure, guilds who rely heavily on casual players should be getting Silver. But those who are mixed should have a shot at Gold even if it means burning a little bit at the end to compensate for a few low RPP members.

Mithrid wrote:Also as far as guild management goes...yeah, in order for large guilds to take advantage of all 100 players by running multiple raids, organizing toons, rising up the leaderboards and running a well oiled machine...its a hell of a lot of work. However there are GM's and Officers in many guilds who are up to the task...this really gives good GM's the ability to show their talent at guild management...and it will also cause less than stellar guilds to either fall into the ranks of mediocrity or disappear all together...but that isn't bad. Many guilds will recognize they are casual players and accept it graciously. (If I was a GM that would be me...I don't have the time, or motivation, to commit myself to running a great guild)

I think people need to accept that Silver is a good norm...and that top guilds will burn or well manage for gold..and that is not bad and actually will give the game a much broader variety.

-Mith

PS: McLovin...I'm not picking on you personally here...your post was well written and I quoted it as it merely conveyed well the feelings of many players currently.


Well organized guilds attract the most dedicated players and have the most consistent Gold runs. That, I think, is enough of an advantage. It was before 1.6 and it should be post 1.6. I think here we just disagree on principle. I'd be willing to play in either format, but I think I'd find myself a lot less willing to care about this game if every raid I run is Silver. I definitely wouldn't occasionally buy gold like I do now.

I'm willing to see how Venan's ideal ratio of G:S:B works out but if you make Gold unreachable to too many people then they will not see much value in their efforts or the time they spend playing BoH.

Also, I don't know about you all, but I was in plenty of Silver raids as a merc in 1.5. Gold was never a guarantee even for higher end KV guilds.

And of course you can quote me all you want, no one loves to read their own words twice than me :)
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