Stat Calculations and Diminishing Returns

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Re: Stat Calculations and Diminishing Returns

Postby Possessed_Mithrid » Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:40 am

john12345 wrote: for onslaught I assume ppl wouldnt bother about diminished return and just dump all 18 to haste:)


Correct John, for CoC/WoF onslaught raids, there is no build strategy as far as Gems/stats are concerned. Generally by the time you can one hit kill any wave in an onslaught with any of your attacks, which is at a relatively low might, you just stack 20 Haste gems (For CoC you best be using 1H). Note that SC has more strategy to it than CoC because one hitting the waves is more challenging and actually does benefit from a little gem/stat build strategy.

TCG_japster wrote:This is good information but there's something even more complex at play, which is your weapon choice + your choice of skills.

While we may know how the efficiency of haste works with each stat point (from gem or HT) with the current information, the interaction between haste and the actual cast time of each skill will differ. Due to the way Venan calculates skill cast time with weapon speed and haste, each skill with a different weapon will have different "breakpoints" before we see a meaningful 0.01s decrease.


Agreed Japster, I do not believe anyone in this thread is suggesting otherwise, here it was originally intended simply as a stat investment discussion. However your point about understanding how the Base% truly affect performance after taking into account other factors such as weapon type and skills involved is part of the broader toon strategy, deserving of a different thread.

Incidentally I really like your weapon calculation sheet you posted...I found it saved me from having to build all the excel calculations myself so it has a spot in my own master BoH excel sheet. :D
Last edited by Possessed_Mithrid on Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stat Calculations and Diminishing Returns

Postby Tiffy » Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:10 pm

I don't dump all slot to haste becoz of the diminishing return, for example... Lets say X haste haste gems may give same attack speed as X+1 haste gems, becoz the higher haste u are at, the more % increase u need to increase ur actual attack speed, the % cost of increase haste beyound a certain point seem not worth it.

For me. I keep my haste at 56.38% haste (with 10 haste gems at all yellow slot) for white slot I put magic n melee gems there instead, so that increasing my chance of one hitting mob with magic or melee attack, giving me more choice of ability to use and not restricted from cool down.

However, if you can one hit in CoC with just 10 red gems and don't need slot for Crit gems, of coz u can dump all all 20 haste gems to push ur attack speed, becoz if you can't one hit I wouldn't recommend dumping all haste gems, becoz using 2 hit to clear enemies take longer time than 1 hit even if ur haste is higher when u take 2 hit.
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Re: Stat Calculations and Diminishing Returns

Postby Tiffy » Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:49 pm

A little test :

Note:
* using all bonus 2 slot to do this test is just so u see what diminishing return is doing to ur haste.
* using all t5 haste gems
*my haste starts at 27.27a% with max haste hero training.

# of haste gems /Haste % / Average(how much haste each slot is giving)
1 29.84% 2.57%
2 31.8% 2.265%
3 33.55% 2.093%
4 34.94% 1.91%
5 36.11%. 1.768%
6 37.11%. 1.64%
7 37.98%. 1.53%
8. 38.74%. 1.43375%
9 39.4% 1.347%
10 40% 1.27%

So you see... First haste gems u put give u 2.57% increase in haste, then the more haste gems u put the less u are getting per haste gems, after 10 gems, that's 50% less you are getting.... Still want to put all 20 gems haste? ( even if some slot give a little more bonus.
After a certain point, each haste gems is just not worth it to invest anymore.
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Re: Stat Calculations and Diminishing Returns

Postby Possessed_Mithrid » Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:45 pm

No offense Tiffy but your not paying attention.
First off, the plots clearly demonstrate exactly what your test shows and then some.
(Note is it generally better to discuss gem placement in terms of raw points as a T5 gem yields different %'s based on what gear it goes into, as it point value will change).
Secondly, everyone understands the concept of diminishing returns, the idea in this discussion is to understand exactly what the rate of the diminishing return is, so that players are better informed as to the tradeoffs when considering their T5 gem purchases.
Finally nobody in the thread is advocating dumping in all 20 Haste gems. (except in the case of a CoC where you don't have anything better to do with the 10 misc slots once you can one-hit kill with every attack ability.)


For anyone interested, here is a fun math problem that Tiffy has reminded me of:
As you add the final few Haste gems to your build, the Haste % impact on your attack/recovery times is fixed, quantized if you will. Likewise the amount of waves you can beat in P1 of CoC is also fixed based on an optimized rotation...and there is only one optimal rotation for CoC P1/P2 for a given order of 2 or 3 monster waves.

How much % Base haste is needed to win an additional wave assuming every attack is a one hit kill?

I leave that one to the interested student. ;)
The answer to that question will actually tell you at what point investing additional haste gems may or may not be useless; depending on whether you gain enough time to win an additional wave in a round. After the last thread on CoC discussion I participated in, I actually built a CoC model..it was interesting to say the least (needs some tweaking). Currently working on an SC...SC actually is much more interesting as getting a 1 hit kill is not as easy.
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Re: Stat Calculations and Diminishing Returns

Postby Tiffy » Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:41 pm

Mithrid wrote:
john12345 wrote: for onslaught I assume ppl wouldnt bother about diminished return and just dump all 18 to haste:)

which is at a relatively low might, you just stack 20 Haste gems (For CoC you best be using 1H). Note that SC has more strategy to it than CoC because one hitting the waves is more challenging and actually does benefit from a little gem/stat build strategy.


>_<
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Re: Stat Calculations and Diminishing Returns

Postby Possessed_Mithrid » Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:19 pm

Mithrid wrote:No offense Tiffy but your not paying attention.
Finally nobody in the thread is advocating dumping in all 20 Haste gems. (except in the case of a CoC where you don't have anything better to do with the 10 misc slots once you can one-hit kill with every attack ability.)


Emphasis: (except in the case of a CoC where you don't have anything better to do with the 10 misc slots once you can one-hit kill with every attack ability.)

I should also point out that you do agree.
Tiffy wrote:However, if you can one hit in CoC with just 10 red gems and don't need slot for Crit gems, of coz u can dump all all 20 haste gems to push ur attack speed,


:P
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Re: Stat Calculations and Diminishing Returns

Postby Tiffy » Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:04 pm

Haste /best RPP (in phase 1)
56.83 / 2700
61.82 / 3000
68.9 / 3450

Hmmmm figures are very tempting now lol anyone try 75% haste ?
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Re: Stat Calculations and Diminishing Returns

Postby Tiffy » Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:15 pm

Speaking of 20 haste gems... Probably only onslaught lover would purchase 20 t5 haste gems... That's a big investment
And u can't even reach soft cap with 20 haste gems :(
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Re: Stat Calculations and Diminishing Returns

Postby EricM » Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:26 pm

Tiffy wrote:Speaking of 20 haste gems... Probably only onslaught lover would purchase 20 t5 haste gems...


aka... you.
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Re: Stat Calculations and Diminishing Returns

Postby Tiffy » Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:34 pm

Oda_tc5k_Idaten wrote:
Tiffy wrote:Speaking of 20 haste gems... Probably only onslaught lover would purchase 20 t5 haste gems...


aka... you.


Lol I dont have 20 haste gems.... 20 each melee magic gems...may be
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